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Gentlemen,

I know that some of you will not like this theory, but to me it seems simply impossible that there were only 2 Röhm dagger orders.

When I look at my 3 Eickhorn ground Röhm's with 3 different but 100% correct makersmarks: they are so different but made by the same firm that I cannot believe that they were all 3 made within just a couple of months difference in time.

It is not just the makersmarks (see pictures), but the complete daggers are different, especially the "christmas" version is completely different (I know it is explained by calling them prototypes). But if nothing of the prototype is kept in the final version of the dagger, what would have been the utility "prototyping" it?
So it is my belief (and I look for proof for it) that Röhm was giving honour daggers with his dadication and signature on it, long before 1934, but that only the massive 1934 order was recorded by history.
Let me know what you think!

Best greetings,

Herman

Pic 1 is a "small serrated tail"

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Small smouth tail

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Early serrated tail (christmas version!)

On some "christmas" daggers another correct Eickhorn makersmark can be found! This supports strongly my theory, does not it!

Best greetings,

Herman

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This is the first I've heard that Christmas daggers had the Rohm inscription.
I always thought they were a preproduction thing.
I see how the maker mark seems to be ground down, is there any evidence of the inscription remaining?

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No, on mine the dedication is completely (but clearly) ground off, but there is a topic on the forum with a picture of an Eickhorn like this one that still has the complete dedication left.

My point is: Röhm was in charge of the SA since 1921 until 1928 and (after his return from South-America) from 1930 until his dead in june 1934. Why would he not have rewarded some of his loyal followers with a dedication dagger in the earlier years, for example at his return in 1930 or even when he left in 1928 to make sure his men would not forget him during his absence?

Let me know what you think.

Best greetings,

Herman


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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Herr Mann:
Why would he not have rewarded some of his loyal followers with a dedication dagger in the earlier years, for example at his return in 1930 or even when he left in 1928 to make sure his men would not forget him during his absence?


Herr Mann,

How could Rohm have made an SA dagger prior to 1933, when Hitler was not yet elected ? Confused
It is said, and there are reference evidence, that the first SA dagger was first officially sanctioned by the NSDAP in Decembre 1933.
No dagger were made prior to this date.
Unless I'm mistaken, these are the only facts that I have, and could not therefore have made an SA dedication blade.

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Patrice,

Thanks for your input.

I do not see why Hitler had to be elected before any daggers could be ordered at the Solingen firms? I agree that it was probably not officially done and therefore not officially recorded by the NSDAP administration (base for the historical records!). But Röhm was appointed as head of the SA by Hitler as soon as 1921. Why would (the head of) a private militia not be able to order any dress daggers? I am sure there must exist pre 1933 pictures with SA men wearing daggers and I will start looking for these.

If we want, we can also order daggers with a dedication and our signature on it and offer them to our friends, why would Röhm not have had this possibily?

It could explain why the eagle on this "christmas" daggers has pointed wings, the different "A" in the motto and a copper scabbard: standards were not yet set.

Herman


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I have on DVD the first Nurnberg-rally with Rohm in Hitlers car(1933).When the troops march by,nobody is wearing any dress daggers as i recall when watching it.

The next rally in 1934,also on DVD(without Rohm),almost everybody is wearing dress daggers.

I would LOVE to see a pre 1933 picture of SA or SS men wearing dress daggers.

Ulf.

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Herr Mann,

Everything is possible but as Ulf mentioned, there are no solid evidence which proves that any SA daggers were ever made prior to 1933.
There are millions of pictures showing SA's troops marching before 1933 and none have any daggers in wear. That pretty much speak for itself.
It is also a known fact that Adolf Hitler has asked in the summer of 1933, Professor Woenne, from the Solingen Commerce school, to actually create a dagger project for the SA troops.
We also know that professor Woenne based his choice on a XVIth Century Swiss dagger type which was painted by artist, Holbein.
Holbein's painting was in the Munich Museum at the time and was named, "The Dance of the Death", where the dagger was painted.
Here's the painting that Professor Woenne took his inspiration from.
In other words, it is impossible that an SA dagger existed prior to 1933.

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Here's the dagger sheath painted by Holbein.
Better close up under this link.

http://www.dodedans.com/Full/holbeins.jpg

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As an historical side note, as we all know, the style of the SA dagger was based on the design of the Swiss army dagger, which was present in Holbein's painting.
The original design of the Swiss army dagger came from Hadrien's Roman Legions in the First Century AD.
The dagger worned by the Roman Legions was known as the "Pugio".
Here's a pic of a reproduction "Pugio".
This is the ancestor of the SA dagger. Cool
As we can see, the design and style of the SA dagger has a lot more historical importance then we would first think.
I don't know if Professor Woenne knew about all this but I find it cool Cool to find out that the SA design was influenced by more than 2000 years of history.

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The Nazi salute also came from the Romans.
The Roman salute was used as a gesture for military courteousy.

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Patrice.... Merci Beaucoups...

Your Photos & Serial explanation of events is very precise & logical. Thanks.

ps: I liked your with the Cigar Avatar better - moins serieous monsieur. (Now it is also Cannucks & Frankreich). Did you some special experience - & have to give up the Montys & Davidoff's? (If so, sent them my way).

Best...

Dave dblmed Smile


[Always looking for TeNo � Schuma � Technische Noodhulp Items...]
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Patrice,

Thank you for your input and the very nice illustrations. The story of the Holbein dagger choosen (by Hitler) is widely spread and accepted, but not by me!

My point is:
- It is known that Röhm was dreaming of replacing the German army with his SA.
- The German army was already using dress daggers for centuries.
- Why would he, the supreme commander of the SA, not give an honour dagger to his officers (in private) if he wanted to? Of course, they could not wear his gift in public until the Nazis were in charge, that is why we see them only in films starting from 1934.
- In 1933 with Hitler elected everything could be "officialised" by Hitler signing the papers prepared by Röhm for a long time, to officially ask to Woenne to develop a dagger. So the so far offered "Christmas" SA dagger is quite drastically transformed into a standard SA dagger that will be an object for mass distribution amoung the SA men.

Personaly I have great difficulty with the story of Hitler choosing the Holbein dagger in a museum and asking the professor to develop a dagger. Hitler was known be be only busy with very high level stuff, he preferred "not to interfere if not necessary". But of course everything was done "in the name of the Fuhrer".
Believe me it was Röhm that wanted the SA to become the future army (and so he wanted daggers), not Hitler!

I know that I have no proof so far, but I am looking for it. Cool

Best greetings,

Herman


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Maybe a couple extra pictures will draw some more people into the discussion.

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Herr Mann,

The problem with your theory is the fact that there is written evidence that the Rohm daggers was first ordered in 1934.
The order (Nr.1444/34) was issued on February 3, 1934, which authorized all SA members to receive and wear a specially inscribed Honor Dagger. We all know what the inscription was. Wink
This is a solid and tangible evidence.

No disrespect intended, though it is true that we can only learn through questioning, but it will be very difficult ( even impossible ) for you to find any relative proof that a dagger did exist prior to 1933.

As you know, theories without facts are always very hypothetical.

My main question to you would be the following : "what fact or evidence do you have that could suggest that the SA dagger was created prior to 1933 ? "
I'm just trying to understand as to why you would think differently about the SA dagger being produced earlier, when everything else suggest the contrary ?
Confused

I would really appreciate if anybody else could give their own opinion about this interesting subject. Cool


BTW, awesome dagger that you have Herr Mann.
Would love to have one such as your's.

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quote:
Originally posted by dblmed:
Patrice.... Merci Beaucoups...


ps: I liked your with the Cigar Avatar better - moins serieous monsieur.
Best...

Dave dblmed Smile


Hello Dave,

Some people suggested that my avatar was too pretentious and therefore decided to take it off.
Now that you've convinced me otherwise, I think that I'll put it back. Wink
BTW, I still smoke those Cuban fine cigars...........when my wife is not around. Big Grin

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Hello Dave,

Please remove my last picture posted here, it was posted by a mistake of mine. Sorry for the inconvenience of this.

Thanks in advance.

Herman


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As you wish
Dave

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Herr Mann,

The introduction of the SA dagger is well documented in period newspapers and magazines. They even had a Rohm free version after 30.6.34 with Goring's name replacing Rohm's. Your theories are wrong.

The reason for the different maker marks on Rohm daggers has nothing to do with seperate orders for Röhm daggers. It's just a change in production. A lot of daggers were produced before Röhm said some daggers will have his signature and those daggers will be delivered first.


"History, in general, only informs us of what bad government is." Thomas Jefferson
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Jon,

Thanks for joining the discussion.

I can believe that the "official" introduction of the SA dagger was well documented in the newspappers, it must have been big news for all the SA men to finally have been permitted to wear a dagger in public.
But I still believe (it would have been only logical!) that there could have been an "unofficial" version(s) before: the Christmas dagger(s)!

Sorry but I am NOT talking about pre produced daggers here: all 3 my daggers have a small mark and that is applied by Eickhorn ONLY to give more space for the dedication on the blade.

And I am NOT talking about 3 identical daggers with just a different makersmark, the Christmas dagger is COMPLETELY different: Grip eagle and position of the eagle, crossguards, blade motto, scabbard (copper), scabbard fittings, ...etc.

So far I still believe firmly that my theory has a chance. Let's not forget that there was minimum 1 more version of the Eickhorn Röhm dagger (that I do not own yet): the one with the normal grip and the "A" motto!

That brings us to 4 different specific Eickhorn Röhm daggers (not pre produced)! Too much to just have been made within an interval of some months in my opinion!

Any other opinions?

Best greetings,

Herman


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Just another interesting thread on the subject dated 2004 and under the SA/NSKK section. Cool

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/160093573/...950062974#9950062974

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Defending this theory:

The book "Les dagues du IIIe Reich" by Charles Mermet and Jean Marfault written in 1981 states on page 134 that the pictured Eickhorn logo was used by the firm from 1926 until 1931. So I wonder how can it be found on a Röhm blade if those were only produced in 1933 and 1934 ??? Do not tell me it is another mistake in the book, because I am talking about the "reviewed and corrected" 2nd edition.

The Xmas daggers must have been earlier (pre 1933) Röhm daggers in my opinion!

Best greetings,

Herman

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Maybe the "reviewed and corrected" 3rd edition will correct this error.


"History, in general, only informs us of what bad government is." Thomas Jefferson
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Certainly it is possible. But keep in mind that at that time the "Party Members" couldn't take a "S" without a written order and the only written order we see today is that of the "Christmas Dagger".

Until such written evidence is produced, we can only postulate at best.

Mike

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The standard SA dienst dolch was produced by order from OSAF (SA Supreme Command) on 15th dec 1933. OSAF I No. 1734/33 Reads: "For the SA...the dagger as part of the uniform will be introduced. It will be supplied to the groups as soon as it is manufactured and paid for in cash..." No SA daggers of any kind were produced before this date, it seems fair to assume.

Ehrendolche were introduced officially on February 3rd 1934, for SA manner who had been SA members since at least 31st December 1931, also by order of OSAF (OSAF I No. 1444/34). However, in the text of the order, it is stated that these daggers "as the ones awarded heretofore, bear my (Rohm) dedication."

SA Historian Dr Martin Schuter writes, in connection with this issue, "Apparently, honorary daggers had already been awarded before that date (Feb 34) but no trace of regulations concerning manufacture or supply could be found in the sources."

Therefore, it seems possible that, as Rohm himself suggests in the order, Rohm-dedicated daggers were produced before feb 1934. It is inconceivable, however, that ANY SA daggers were produced before December 1933.

Source: Dr. Martin Schuster, "SA Organization and Daggers in Gruppe Nordmark" 2006

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Great information, Gustavo, thanks a lot!

Your posts are of great value for this forum: mostly based on historical facts and figures with statement of the source.

Still I continue my search of when exactly these very first, Third Reich daggers (we call them "Christmas SA's") were produced. I hope to prove one day that they were "non official" ones and therefore could be made before the OSAF came with its order.
Too bad the Eickhorn firm got bankrupted...

Best greetings,

Herman


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Gustavo,
The OSAF and Rohm started working on the SA dagger in the spring/summer of 1933. This is documented in the "Solinger Tageblatt", "Solinger Beobachter", "Wirtschafts-Beobachter" and other source. There are articles outlining the design, prototyping and production of the SA dagger. There is even an article with a reference to Rohm giving daggers as gifts as early as November 1933.

You are incorrect with your assumption, that an order outlining the procedure for ordering the approved SA dagger is an order introducing it.


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Excellent followup points Jon.
I seriously doubt that Eickhorn, Klaas, Herder or Boker could have begun anything prior to an offical order - furthermore, they would not have had the funding to do so at that time.

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Thanks for those sources, which I didnt know about, as didnt Dr Schuster, it seems.

Would be great to have the exact references of those sources.

In any case, this is the kind of discussion that will lead to firm conclusions. To the (original) sources!

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Gustavo,
You can find several of original articles reprinted in Johnson vol II, VI & VII.


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If those references are only Sonlingen and industry publications, this is only proof of the fact that the edged weapons factories were involved in designing and promoting dagger models and prototypes to the SA before Dec. 33, as is to be expected.

The 15 december 1933 OSAF order mentioned further states:

"The groups are to report the number of daggers they require by 31st january 1934 and will, at the same time, send the sum of RM 7.30 per piece to OSAF division IV (post office giro account Heinrich Winterling, Munich...) Daggers will be supplied to the groups in the order of most money sent in.... orders regulating the manner in which daggers are to be worn are to follow..."(my enphasis)

Supplying the SA gruppen with daggers began no earlier than feb 1934, and OSAF was immediately faced with a logistical nightmare, daggers ordered but not paid for in advance etc etc as shown on Schuster´s paper

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The first shipments of SA daggers to the SA didn't happen until April 1934.


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Jon,

Are you using any particular reference material (like Gustavo) or does all your information only comes from the Johnson's bibles?

It is always interesting and fascinating if historic information is confirmed (or challenged!) by other independent sources.

Thank you, Gustavo, for bringing another view on this!

Best greetings,

Herman


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Jon is a very knowledgeable and respected member of this community who knows a lot more than most about daggers. I certainly have no desire to compete with him or anyone else, "be right" etc. I do think this is a profitable discussion as long as we keep focused on the issue and demand hard, original, documented evidence supporting each view. I also think its healthy to respectfully challenge "authority" Cool

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Herman,
I have a large library of period documentation on third Reich Edged Weapons and almost everything that was ever written on third Reich edged weapons. I belief I have read "Schuster´s paper" (If it's the one Gustavo posted on the forum awhile back). I have spent too much time gleeming little bits of info from the National Archives and the MHI about the SA and Third Reich Edged Weapons. I know a little bit about TR daggers and I continue to find new information.

In my posts I will only discuss topics where I can use a contemporary reference to back up my position.


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I have never seen a photo of an SA with a dedication using Goring's signature as is mentioned in this discussion. Does anyone have a photo to post or know of a publication with one?

Also I have always heard tales of the large oval Eickhorn logo on an SA with dedication, but have never seen one. Any photos or references on them known?

My compliments to everyone posting for a polite, informative, scholarly discussion on a contoversial subject. Wish it could be like this on all the site discussions.

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Mr.Hanson,

I have a name only ground Rohm with the large Eickhorn oval. I will try to post a picture when I get home later today.

BTW, while I too welcome discussion, Herr Mann's only reason for questioning the date of SA Dagger original production is that there are different Eickhorn trademarks. When such a large order was placed, why couldn't a large company like Eickhorn use more than one of their own trademark templates at one time?

In addition, if Rohm had custom made daggers produced before 1933, and then gave them to special SA members, why wouldn't these special guys have their pictures taken with them?

Chief


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