UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Miscellaneous Dagger Forum Question about Postschutz dagger in Wear

Hello all!

I would like to get an opinion about this photo.

What kind of dagger is this Postschutz leader wearing?

Thanks!!!



Christian

Closeup

It appears to be a Postal with the center scabbard band taken off. Unusual photo!

The pommel and crossguard does not look like Postschutz to me.

Looks like a Postschutz crossguard to me the pommel does look a little strange but I bet it the picture.

You can see the Postschutz emblem it seems.

I would say its a Post with a RLB scabbard. This is a PRIME example that the Germans did use parts from other daggers to make a set. So you could have a period parts dagger. It also proves that the standard was not always followed! Imagine that.

Very true!

Christian, I told you about this photograph several months ago. I have had several top dagger men look at it and the opinion is all the same. Remember, you gave me the date off the back of the photo.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

To the rest of the members here: This is the most significant photograph to surface in the past ten years. A classic piece of history and establishes the fact that the precurser of the Postal Official's Dagger was this dagger and it is a special piece.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Now if we could only get a photo of the 1st R.R.in wear. We have to learn to never say never with WW2 daggers etc.If a dagger like this came up for sale or was posted it would have been trashed as a parts dagger.I still remember 20+ yrs ago and I'm sure others will also, finding daggers with the wrong scabbards from vets who switched them because the scabbard was dented or the dagger just fit it.I always though Postshutz dagger scabbards were a mix of RLB parts

To be informative here, this man is a teacher at the Postschutz Schule in 1936. It is obvious from this picture that the dagger is a school dagger and the piece is a predecessor to the Postschutz Leader's Dagger.
For years, this dagger was in existance and thought to be an enlisted man's dagger and it WAS NOT. It was even questioned as to originality because so few were known, and, as pictured here, DID EXIST.
JUST MY OPINION,
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Thanks for all the answers!!

Yes Ron, I remember very well what you told me. This raised my interest in this field.
After I showed the photo in a US and a German forum a lot of collector contacted me with different ideas.

A Postschutz collector has the idea of a "first model" Postschutz dagger.

I'm now interetsed in any opinion or idea, and I would of course like to see a photo of this dagger.



Christian

This could also be the Postal shortie dagger that Vern has in his collection.

Here is picture of Postal shortie in my collection. How 'bout that?

To be honest I REALLY like the Post Dagges. They are often overlooked due to the lack of exciting history behind the post office. I think the dagger material quality is top notch. The style is one of the best German daggers ever made! Simple but very unique. Not to mention that they are rare. I would never part with mine!

Von Rader:
The correct name is Postschutz, and they were not for post men but for protection units of the postal system, they were later incorporated into the SS since in a since they were kinda a police type group. I agree with you awesome daggers, never owned one but hope to sooner or later.

The "Postchutzpolizei" were paramilitary armed forces.

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=3116

Doing the same job as the "Banschutzpolizei" but for the Railway system.

Thanks for the link Pat nice information!!

Thanks Pat nice info site and very interesting.

Adam, Yes I understand they were called the Postschutz. I was using shorthand. I have a couple of items that I will post. Thanks

What did the Postschutz actually protect? The post office - from what? Someone urinating in the telephone booths inside while pretending to make a phonecall? Or did they protect the mail - from nogoodniks stealing nice picture postcards - or welfare checks - or Christmas packages loaded with cookies and dried camomile tea?
The picture above shows a Postschutz enlisted man with a dagger. This gives credence to my view I've been holding all along that the daggers were worn by every mail carrier, even truckdrivers for UPS and FEDEX and all thems that delivered the mail via oxen drawn stagecoach in the rural communities. Yessir!

I understand the focus on dress weapons. But in fact some postal forces actually had the same kinds of rifles, combat bayonets, and some of the other things as the German Army that were designed to kill and maim. The German Railway system had the same kind of forces and arms. My point being that perhaps a slightly deeper look into what was going on back then illustrates why certain organizations were not what they might first appear to be. Regards, FP

I really need one to go under that

Vogel, you say the man pictured is an enlisted man. How can this be as he is wearing a bullion officer's chincord on his hat. He was an official at the school, probably a teacher and definately an officer. This is an early uniform.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Postal Employees with guns?....Thats preposterous.

Tom,

Are you aware that the Postal Inspectors of the US Postal Service are armed ? Check out their site:

http://www.usps.com/postalinspectors/

This is from their FAQ:

3. What authority do Postal Inspectors have under the law?
As sworn federal law enforcement agents, Postal Inspectors have the power to serve warrants and subpoenas issued under the authority of the United States; make arrests without warrant for postal-related offenses committed in their presence; make arrests without warrants for postal-related felonies cognizable under the laws of the United States, if they have reasonable grounds to believe that the person arrested has committed or is committing such a felony; carry firearms, and make seizures of property as provided by law.

Dave

Thanks to all for the interesting discussion of an often over looked subject.

By the way, the subject is more than likely an EM due to his belt buckle. His hat cords may not be indicative of an officer but being in the postal colors which are indiscernible in this B&W photo. Personally, I would lean toward the idea of a 1st. model postal dagger over an EM version. If there were an EM version, surely there would be many more around and besides, a postal delivery person wasn't a highly paid position affording those amongst the ranks to purchase an expensive dagger. I'm just thinking out loud and have no information or period documentation..

Manfred, that's a really, really cool dagger.

"Inspectors allowed to carry weapons"!

I'm going to have to keep a closer eye on my post guy who after staying in his delivery van for extended periods of time, (drinking his lunch) walks a little bit c o c k -eyed and looses half of the mail. (always felt that he was reading the latest issue of the GDC news letter or MAX Gazette but now I'm having other thoughts)

A great and interesting subject and a cool dagger.

Gents,

I know that mvogel had his tongue placed firmly in his cheek when he made his remarks. I see the winky smiley face clearly.

Having said that, in addition to non-uniformed US Postal Inspectors, the USPO also has uniformed Postal Police as well. You will see these folks in large, high threat, postal facilities. They too are armed and have specific police powers.

The German Postschutz did the same thing by guarding the mail and postal facilities/assets in occupied territories. Fully armed with police dogs, rifles, and machine pistols they followed behind the front lines. They also controlled the telephone and telegraph system and carried out wiretaps and mail inspection for the Gestapo and SD. Quite a varied brief for a little known organization.

George

ORPO,

I had always thought that the telephone and telegraph police duties were assigned to the "SS Funkschtz" Or, was this a dual organization position or perhaps the SS Funkschutz was solely responsible for SS installations only?

John

Great topic and extremely great dagger - as usual Herr Vogel has a beauty.
As to the functions and administration of these fellas they fell under the Reichs Ministry of Interior and the personnel for the Postschutz were drawn from the Sonderpolizei and under the supervision of the Postmaster - General Dr. Ohnesorge. One of their functions was to provide security to the extensive communications installations.At one point the Postschutz strength was over 45000 strong.After 1942 the Postschutz was transferred from the German Post Office to the Ordnungspolizei which was part of Himmlers Reich.

John,

I believe the SS-Funkschutz was mostly concerned with "Funker" or wireless duties. The Ordnungspolizei also had radio finder units to track down clandestine wireless transmissions. The difference would be funken duties involve radio and wireless telegraph transmissions rather than hard wire land lines that were the baliwick of the Postschutz.

There were a lot of Governmental law enforcement organs keeping track of the public!

George

Hey Weinand: I didn't want to confuse anyone but my whole posting was a spoof. I'm pretty much aware that this guy wouldn't have delivered mail from an oxen drawn cart out in the rural areas.

Very interesting photo and dagger. It does seem to be the RLB EM scabbard here but it could also be the Postschutz scabbard without the center fitting. At any rate a Postschutz blade is a lot longer and quite a bit wider at the crossguard then an RLB EM and I don't think it would go in the scabbard. It could be an RLB type EM blade though. Also interesting about the rank-someone should be able to tell for sure from the collar tabs.

That was pretty much my assessment, however, the RLB EM scabbard has no upper scabbard fitting. Maybe the Postschutz dagger evolved in a way similar to the RLB officer's dagger where this might be the model one, and shortly thereafter a center fitting and hanger chain might have been added and maybe retrofitted to the entire existing stock. This is why we don't see any 'model one' Postschutz daggers today.

From the looks of it this fella was a Postschutz"Zughauptfuhrer" the senior NCO rank like a Hauptfeldwebel.

Vogel, a great observation. Maybe the first model was the un-numbered and non-DRP marked ones that had the chain and clip added. This might explain the difference in length and would be the reason for the few number of short ones found.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria