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Joined: May 2002
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i dont have my Allach guide close by,,,did they make this plate?,,,looks good but i dont recall this particular design,,,thanks,,,Robert

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reverse with makers mark,,

498433913112_0_BG.jpg (18.8 KB, 186 downloads)
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Yes they did make that plate. It is known as an "SS plate" and you can see it at www.allachporcelain.com which is run by Dennis Porell. It looks good to me.

Mark Cool

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thanks for your rapid response kingtiger,,,Robert

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Rbt., It is in fact a very scarce/rare Allach plate.I,ve seen one here in UK where the claim was probably two and specifically awarded by HH.
Of course thats just from your pics.
Cheers Doug P. Wink

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PS:
The wreath and runes are unglazed or bisque finish as distinct from the plate itself.
Seiler

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hi seiler,,,what is the value of this plate?..it seems to have a small chip to the rim,,,thanks,,,Robert

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seiler,,,plate has full glaze,,,is this correct??...Robert

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Hi Rbt,
Was sometime earlier this year I last saw it.
Believe it was sold.But, from memory for sure plate body in full glaze.Wreath and runes in bisque (unglazed finish)Stunning BUT,very expensive.I heard it was $15k plus!!!!Supposedly only given by Himmler maybe a couple known.Definitely a rare one!
I,m sure Mark would agree if the rim chip is,nt
too great,a very good porcelain Restorer would have it like new!and if the price were right worth having it done.Check out Kris Lindblom at Third Reich Arts on WAF or ask Dennis directly
for more info.
Cheers.Keep us updated?
Seiler (Doug) Wink

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seiler,,,according to the owner,,,plate has full glaze to include runes and wreath,,correct or incorrect??.. Confused Robert

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Didn't Ulrich have one of these on his site?

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Plate damaged, value diminished, seller shopping the world, value is low. Beware of source.

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I am not certain that that is a chip on the plate. It may be the plate holder. I don't think this plate is that rare, but Kris L. would know for sure. The Allach mark looks good, but you can never be absolutely sure without an ironclad guarantee and a refund if not correct.

Mark

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The plate is indeed chipped and would require professional repair. If it were mint it would bring 4-5000.00 as a reasonable number possibly higher with a motivated buyer.

But it has been offered to several dealers but seller is from what I understand difficult and wants payment upfront and will not allow inspection prior to payment and not a regular collector or dealer with a legitimate track record. So its probably worth 18-2200.00 and needs professional repair taking the investment to about 3k. Not bad but would want the piece in hand before I made payment. These were presentations but most were never presented and obtained though over stock at wars end by U.S vets. Kris L actually contacted me to see if I was interested but fell back from the deal based on the damage and stated others had been contacted.

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so as i understand it,,this plate has been shopped around to many others?...thanks,,Robert

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That is what I have been told, meaning the seller is shopping it around to dealers. Unless a dealer is now trying to pre-sell the piece. But with plates the damage assessment is heavy compared to other items. I have wanted one for some time myself and that is how I was notified it might becoming available.

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thanks for your reply john,,,Robert

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It is being offered at $2,500 or best offer.
Speaking for myself, I declined to bid.

Mark

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Isn't it amazing how every scarce item seems to be awarded by Himmler.

There are blank plates with the police eagle center. When awarded by Himmler and Daluege, police plates were properly lettered for the specific event and usually dated. There exists an example of the Rune plate with award lettering. Perhaps a presentation or gift from Himmler? With a lettered presentation it would be more personal than a blank plate.

The blank rune plates are like the blank police plates. Extra production kept by Allach for replacement to authorized recipients in case of brakeage. To me that is the most logical explanation.


"This hobby is a continuing education"
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quote:
Originally posted by JWotka:
Isn't it amazing how every scarce item seems to be awarded by Himmler.

There are blank plates with the police eagle center. When awarded by Himmler and Daluege, police plates were properly lettered for the specific event and usually dated. There exists an example of the Rune plate with award lettering. Perhaps a presentation or gift from Himmler? With a lettered presentation it would be more personal than a blank plate.

The blank rune plates are like the blank police plates. Extra production kept by Allach for replacement to authorized recipients in case of brakeage. To me that is the most logical explanation.


I believe only one SS plate has been recorded with a lettered presentation and I have photo's of that and they do not appear on any website that I have seen to date. And it was for a competition of the same manner as a Police competition. But although left over stock may seem to be the most logical explanation "logic" as a rule does not always fair well in this hobby. And there are several explanations all of which could be applied as logic. You can see the logic in that, yes? Wink.

Logic is like a mirage, its there one minute and gone the next.

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I am looking at the SS with dedication and thinking why would all these SS plates have no dedication yet only a few blank police plates known?. Maybe the Ehrenpreis that supposedly went extinct in 1939 really did not go extinct at all. Maybe the Ehrenpreis was replaced with the SS plate with dedication? But with the onset of war their use was limited and they went un-awarded which is why most of them are found blank. But if you apply that theory than why would Himmler re-order more SS plates during the war when sports competitions were really not happening?. Could it be because these were given out in blank form?. Sounds logical.

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...

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Interesting!
Who/where is this plate being touted?
Yes ,Ulric of England did have one on POA sometime this year.From someone who knows him,claimed it was SOLD.$15k??It was undamaged.
I can think of one individual here in UK who could have been the "Buyer".I will ask him.
Curiouser and curiouser!
Seiler (Yank in UK) Confused

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Update.
I spoke to the gent today.
"No not me was offered but passed.Crazy price.
Anyway I,m not into this stuff anymore.Too expensive.But I think I know where it went.Will ask."
??????????
Seiler Roll Eyes

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Yes, I am only aware of one lettered SS plate and I also have a photo of that one. I don't know that there are that many blank SS or police plates out there. I am always open to other logical explanations. But I always try to lay an historical foundation for them.

The Ehrenpreis police plate design did not go completely extinct in 1939. While the National Police Championships, in which the SIPO then RSHA units participated, ceased with the 1939 Handball championships in Koenigsberg, the plate design was used after the beginning of the war. There is one example known- the BdO Posen plate that was probably awarded in mid 1940 after creation and organization of the BdO in Gau Wartheland in late 1939. So I do not see a situation that would call for the replacement of the Ehrenpreis plate with the SS plate.

Sporting competitions continued for the police during the war, both at home and in theaters of occupation. Award documents were presented in instances I have noted.

When or where the SS sports plate was begun I have not been able to determine. Perhaps the design was for Allegemeine SS events. In the case of both the police Ehrenpreis and the SS plate, quantities would have been ordered from Allach and a reserve maintained for replacement due to breakage. The police plate was changed after 1937 to a bisquit finish eagle. And a reserve was maintained of that design. That is why there are blank examples of both police plates.


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I think the surplus is in fact logical, and these have mostly been turned up from vets in the U.S, same as the plate in the beginning of this topic. But in the same aspect I am inclined to deviate from what is written as in most cases not all is written. And while the Germans were meticulous in documenting everything, I do not think we can exclude options which are alternative possibilities. Its very easy to get tunnel vision. So the replacement of the Police plate with the SS plate has no foundation in reality and as a matter of fact the SS plate is dated 1938 which would mean it overlapped the Ehrenpreis.

So, I was merely pointing to something that has recently come to mind when applying logic. And the truth is Logic is both a manifestation and a victim of perception. Since perception varies per individual, so does their logic. Now maybe that might sound like I read too many fortune cookies, but a blank police plate was presented and the source of that is quite reputable. So if it occurred once? then "Logic" would dictate it probably happened more than once, "Logic would also dictate it probably happened with an SS plate as well. Now it may not be written, but that does not make it untrue. So what we write now and what re-write in the future has to be done in a fashion that does not close the doors on free thought. Other wise we get a bunch of people becoming parrots for all that is written. This does us no service. And as a matter of fact it is the root cause for many issues in the hobby today. As I have no doubt in my mind that legitimate pieces are being discarded due to what has been put in print.

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The guy offered it to me too. I declined. I told him "near mint" and "chipped" do not go together...


JERRY
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I would be the first to agree that tunnel vision is a no-no in this hobby and I would not encourage it. And I would love to have to correct myself if new information emerges that would shed light on the story. I am interested in the history and learning.


"This hobby is a continuing education"
Looking for Walther Model 8 #727649
and Walther PP #975557

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