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Walter Offline OP
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What do you Guys think about this sword?
I plan to bid on it ... Is it REAL?

Super GENDAITO Samurai Sword by UJINAGA Full Polish

Thanks!

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I like it, be prepared to pay a lot more than the current bid. If you really want it. If the harmon on the blade is for real. I think it's at least a $3000 to $4000 sword. I will put this one on my watch list just to see how much it sells for.

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quote:
Originally posted by Dow Cross:
I like it, be prepared to pay a lot more than the current bid. If you really want it. If the harmon on the blade is for real. I think it's at least a $3000 to $4000 sword. I will put this one on my watch list just to see how much it sells for.


I FIND IT AMAZING THT PEOPLE WILL PAY THIS LEVEL OF FUNDS FOR A SHOWATO WHEN THEY CAN FIND A REAL ANTIQUE HAND FORGED BLADE IN POLISH WITH PAPERS FOR THAT TYPE OF MONEY.


"A man needs to know his limitations" Dirty Harry
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this is an oil quenched sword made of mill produced steel the japanese do not consider them nihonto and destroy any sent back to japan its worth �650 as a good example of a ww2 officers sword it has no value as a , for want of a better word, samurai sword

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the fittings are cheap cast items

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In my opinion, this might not be an oil quenched sword. Based only on the picture, I have not seen an oil quenched sword with characteristics in the hamon as shown on this sword. As for it being mill steel, I don�t know how anyone can tell that from a picture. This sword apparently does not have an arsenal stamp so it might very well be allowed into Japan and not destroyed. In fact, some Showa period swords are now receiving papers in Japan. It seems as though the Japanese are slowly changing their minds about these pieces. I even know of one sword where the arsenal stamp was removed and it received papers. As for it not being a Samurai sword, what does that really mean and why should we care? I have submitted a few pre-showa period swords for shinsa and they received �pink� papers. Why, because they were considered (and written on the papers) as being �mass� produced. They were beautiful looking swords however; they were produced during a time when they were pounding out swords by the thousands. Apparently, the shinsa teams think they are of little or no worth so I guess those aren�t Samurai swords either! My point is, what era of Nihonto collecting a person chooses is that individual�s personal choice. The Nihonto �purist� think that only pre-showa pieces have any value and it�s just not so.

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quote:
As for it not being a Samurai sword, what does that really mean and why should we care?


Gentlemen,

I agree with Hayabusa2 since the term has no real meaning. One can collect "Samurai" swords, "Art" swords, or "Military" swords. They are all different things and why would we want to compare one to another?

IMHO Japanese sword collectors who denegrate "mass produced" military swords are missing the boat. If they don't want to collect them, then that is a personal choice and it is fine and dandy. I believe that a Showa period military sword has a story to tell and is just as collectable as an "old" sword. The Showa Navy kai-gunto sword is certainly not as expensive as, say an old or early new sword but it certainly has a fascinating history and lots of folks collect them. The auction above is an example of the interest and the real value of some of these swords. Auction trends will (with some exceptions) generally reflect the value of a given item on any given day.


"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
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its oil quenched you can see the hard bits at the top of the peaks water quenched swords do not have this feature also no nie or nio
as a ww2 military sword its very nice i wasnt knocking it but i cannot see why anyone would pay so much for a mass produced item when a true gendiato from the same era or an older sword can be bought for the same money
as for how can one tell from a photo try looking at 2/3 swords a week ( i saw 4 at an antique fair this morning only one was gendiato nice suguha hamon itame hada mumei in good navy mounts for �600 )nearly 30 years
i did say for want of a better word samurai sword

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only gendiato can be sent to japan and yes some do get papers no showato oil quenched blade will ever get a set of papers they are just not what nihonto is about.there were many very very good smiths working in the showa period
as for true nihonto i have several shimosaka swords which bost on the nakago that they were made using western imported steel a purist could say they were not nihonto as they were not made of tamagane

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From what I can make out in the pictures, the Habuchi seems to be made up of nie so I might disagree that the hamon shows no traits of being water quenched. Again, using a picture to assess a Japanese sword only tells half the story no matter how many you might have seen.

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sorry you are wrong this is a classic oil quenched blade you are not seeing nie ,large martensitic crystals, in the type of habuchi you get on these swords the crystals are too small to be called nioi. an oil quench is at a far lower temperature then a water quench so you do not get such features just look at the hard dead areas in the hamons togari these are found on oil quenched not water quenched blades

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uji naga is listed as a seki smith who made poor to good showato not gendiato so he would not have qualified to get tamegane

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I don�t know what book you got that information out of (maybe Hawleys) but to me, it means nothing. When it comes to Showa period swords, the available information is still suspect at best. Remember the Japanese also said there were no ancestral blades or traditionally made blades carried in Gunto mounts during WWII. Of course, that turned out not to be true. We now have Star stamped blades, Yasukuni blades, Koa Ishin and a host of others that are getting papered. Like I mentioned previously, even blades where the arsenal stamp has been removed have been papered. Didn�t they tell us that all arsenal (or any stamped) blades were junk. Ya right! As far as this smith having access to tamahagane, I guess only he knows for sure because I doubt if any of us on this board were alive at the time.

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sorry this blade is an oil quenched showato as bob stated
as far as swords getting papered i agree with everything you say
but this blade would never get papers it is not gendiato as all the others you mention ,star stamped yasakuni shrine , can be classed as
if you dont mind me asking how many swords do you handle on a weekly basis ?

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i have never heard or read that the japanese said no old blades were carried in ww2 mounts were did you get this information? i have owned hundreds and i do mean hundreds on gunto mounted blades a good percentage contain old blades. it was very common for old swords to be remounted during ww2 i even own a emura in good quality civilian mounts so anything was possible

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the production of tamehagane was strictly controled ,as it is today, so we do know which smiths were given this steel .a few smiths ran there own smelters

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for you information uji naga is listed in the seki tanrensho printed in 1939
i can fax you a copy

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I�ve studied and collected Nihonto for about 25 years. It has always been my main area of collecting however, as a rule I don�t do much posting. I have handled literally thousands of Japanese swords over these years. For many years I had booths at militaria and antique shows and was buying Japanese swords when they were selling for next to nothing. I was also a member of the JSSUS and attended most of the big swords shows and Shinsa in the US. How many swords I handle on a weekly basis means nothing because, what does �weekly� have to do with anything. I have a large collection (as do many of my friends) so I handle them on a regular basis.

Thank you for the offer to fax me a copy of the tanrensho however, I already have that book. In fact, I have a nice sword book up for auction on ebay that ends in just a few hours.

Tamahagne might have been controlled but it was obviously still available. As you mentioned, some smiths operated their own smelter so who knows what was available to whom. Also remember that all arsenal stamped blades were supposedly not made of tamahagne but in some cases that has turned out not to be true. Only in recent times has there been an acknowledgement that star stamped blades are traditionally made blades. Why did it take so long for that information to surface? It�s always been a well known fact that the Japanese would not acknowledge that there were any good swords carried during WWII. They dismissed the idea for as long as they could get away with it. After all, they knew that the knowledge base outside of Japan was minimal so who could dispute what they were saying. In the meantime, they were busy buying back so many of these blades that it would make your head spin. Years ago, the big Chicago sword show would be packed with Japanese buyers who had bank rolls of money in hand. Those days are now long gone. Like you, I have found many great old blades in Gunto mounts. However, have you noticed information on showa period blades surfacing now that the �old� blades are starting to get a little scarce? All of a sudden some of these Showa blades are better than what we were led to believe and even the Japanese have a much bigger interest in them. Hmmm, imagine that!

In any event, I respect your opinion on this sword however, like mine; it�s just an opinion that might be right or wrong.

Best of luck you on finding that �National Treasure Sword�

Gary

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THE CONCEPT THAT IMPORTANT SWORDS WERE NOT CARRIED IN GUNTO MOUNTS IS A FALSEHOOD. I KNOW OF MANY SWORDS AWARDED JUYO TOKE AND EVEN TOKUBETSUJUYOTOKEN THAT WERE FOUND IN SHINGUNTO MOUNTS. THE WOULD INCLUDE A YOSHIOKA ICHIMONJI, A SOSHU FUSAMUNE, A HOJOJI MASAHIRO A KOTESTSU, A RAI KUNINOBU, A KANEUJI. THESE ARE JUST A FEW I KNOW OF.
REAL NIHONTO WERE MADE FROM IMPORTED STEEL MAINLY IN THE EDO PERIOD, NOT TRUE TAMAHAGANE. BEFORE THE WAR, THE JAPANESE ARMY OPENED THE TATARA FORGE, HIGH IN THE MOUNTS OF WESTERN JAPAN TO PRODUCE TRADITIONAL TAMAHAGNE. AT THE END OF THE WAR, THE FORGE WAS CLOSED. IN 1977, THE FORGE WAS REOPENED BY THE NIPPON BIJITSU TOKEN HOZON KYOKAI(JAPANESE SWORD APPRECIATION MUSEUM). I HAD THE GOOD FORTUNE TO VISIT IT IN AUTUMAN OF 1979. AN OLD FRIEND OF MINE, WHO WAS AMASTER SHOWA ERA SWORDSMITH, GAVE ME A PIECE OF TAMAHAGNE, WHICH I TO THIS DAY TREASURE.
AS TO THE ISSUANCE OF PAPERS ON SMITHS FROM THIS ERA, THE CRITERIA ARE THAT THE PIECE MUST BE A TRADITIONAL SWORD AND THE SWORDMAKER MUST BE DECEASED. I ACTUALLY SUBMITTED SEVERAL MINATIGAWA JINGA AND YASUKUNI JINGA SWORDS FOR SHINSA IN JAPAN BACK IN THE MID 80'S AND RECEIVED PAPERS ON ALL OF THEM.


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sorry to be arrogant but it not an opinion its fact that sword is a showato
BOB ????

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just look at the hamon its so oil quenched it must be still driping!!!!

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Bob, great information and all so true! I think all of us who have actively pursued Nihonto have found some of these great old blades (and newer ones)in WWII mounts. It's an exciting moment finding those "hidden treasures".

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by nickn2:
sorry to be arrogant but it not an opinion its fact that sword is a showato
BOB ????[/QUOTE

PLEASE REREAD MY FIRST POST. I ALSO REFER TO THE SWORD AS A SHOWATO. THE PREVIOUS POSTS WERE MEANT TO EXPAND ON PREVIOUS COMMENTS.


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i agree with all other comments not relating to this sword

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Of course this sword is a "Showato", I never stated that it wasn't. The debate is whether it is oil or water quenched. As I said, I need to have it in hand before I could make my final assessment. Here's the definition of a Showato from a regarded sword web site.

Showato - "Showa era sword" (this term refers to any sword made during the Showa era, 1926 to 1989, not to whether it is handmade or not.)

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ALTHOUGH THE TERM SHOWATO TRANSLATED MEANS A SWORD OF THE SHOWA ERA, THE TERM HAS ALWAYS BEEN USED BY COLLECTORS TO DEFINE A MASS PRODUCED MILITARY SWORD AND TO DIFFERENTIATE FROM GENDAITO, WHICH ARE TRUE HAND FORGED AND WATER TEMPERED BLADES.


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i really do feel from the photos ,especially the photos of the hamon, it is obviously an oil quenched mass produced blade and as the smith is listed as making such blades not gendiato well

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here is a water quenched blade ebay# 280181540366
look at the hamon it is alive with activity look at the nie
i bet this one goes for less then the uji naga!


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