UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons The BCN Bayonet Forum Double Etched Storm Trooper K98 Bayonet - Info needed

Hello People. This is my first post so if I'm in the wrong place, please forgive me. I recently bought 4 German Daggers. 1 Army, 1 Navy, 1 RAD, and this etched Mauser 98 Bayonet. It looks very well made, and has a small script "d" stamped after the etching was done so I'm assuming this is an acceptance stamp? The grip is a red bakelite material. The mounting slot contains a rectangular piece of felt. There is a leather protector disk against the hilt of the grip. If anyone could help me on this it would be appreciated.

With respect a well known post war fantasy etch.Possibly of English origin where most of these things appear
Seiler (Yank in UK)

I'm shocked to hear this? I purchased this with three others I mentioned, the Stag handled RAD, a gold Gernam Army, and a Silver German Navy, from a very knowledgeable collector. I don't think he would have been fooled. I've had several substantial offers for the 4 together. But I don't like selling something without knowing exactly what it is. How would one explain the stamped German script "d" that was applied after the etching was done. Isn't that an acceptance mark of sorts? Does anyone have pictures of similar etched bayonets, fake or otherwise? here are the other 3.

Sorry, but Seiler is right. These come in a variety of configurations, mostly SS. They are issue (not dress) bayonets. They have been around quite a few years and may be making a re-appearance. They are collected in their own right, however. Collectors who know what they are add them to their collections. I have seen them sell in the $250 to $350 (US) range. The etching, for the most part is excellent. You occasionally see the distinctive pattern on SS or police swords, as well as other edged weapons. It seems to found mostly on issue bayonets, however.

Buck welcome to the forum. As Seiler has correctly mentioned the etching is fake, being worked on in the 1970's in England, although there seems to be new etches coming out of eastern europe recently. The bayonet is a regular German K98 combat bayonet. The 7124 over d is the seriel number of the bayonet. Each year the first 9999 bayonets made would be numbered 1 through to 9999, then they would go back to 1 over a, then after 9999 over a go back to 1 over b and so on. This would of course have been applied before the etching not afterwards as you thought.
Check the topics in the bayonet forum, it is full of people who have bought these believeing them to be original etching.
As for the reputable dealer, anyone who has spent any time reading german edged weapon books or checking forums will know the history of these. I can't comment on the other daggers as they are not my area, but if he was passing this bayonet as original i realy don't hold much hope for the others being original either. Hopefully other more knowledgeable members will prove me wrong.

thanks for the replies, but in this case (if it makes any difference) the little "d" was applied "after" the etching was done. As far as the other 3 go, I gotta think they are OK based on the dollar offer I've had from a reputable dealer.

Here is a close-up of the small stamped script "d" that I mentioned. You can see it is stamped into the area that was etched.

Buck, The other three appear fine but as stated above the k 98 is a fantasy piece. These were made in the 70's and although look authentic sometime actually better then an original etch they are in fact post war manufactured.

quote:

Originally posted by Buck Stix:
Here is a close-up of the small stamped script "d" that I mentioned. You can see it is stamped into the area that was etched.

Buck,
The "d" is part of serial number sequence.

Please could You send what is on opposite ricasso? there should be maker stamp, on pommel is probably remains of WaA253? the grips were probably removed by etching while the flashguard is missing.The frog should be attached on a dress bayonet. best regards,Andy
PS the scabbard should be matched with the bayo.

Buck

Got www.old-smithy.info and you will see a page dedicted to the fantasy etched 84/98's prepared by Andy and one done by me on fantasy pieces. You will also see a fairly a large collection of pictures of 84/98 markings which will show that as Andy has said the number over the d is the original serial number of the bayonet. The location of the "d" is coincidence and not the result of it being put there after etching. I have had a lot of discussions with people who have bought or are trying to sell these, including many who swear that grandad picked it up off the body of....(seems Vets are as bad as fishermen for the tal tails).

I had a long discussion a couple of years ago with the dealer who sold the original bayonets to the etcher in th e70's, he carefully chose only mint matching bayonets for his work (a large consignment of blades from Czechoslovakia were the source). After his death annnnnnnnother guy made a secod batch but these used lower quality and mis matched blades. Originally they were made as fantasy pieces but now get sold as real to people who have not studyed the subject and are looking for SS items, just hope you didnt pay too much as they sell here "new" from a dealer for about 120GBP and last time i asked he had several different ones for sale.

My example is for a unit at the Dachau concentration camp, others for the Afika corps, Navy units, special SS units etc. are out there.

Here is a photo of the makers stamp. It is "F.Herdera.Sn." The blade is etched with the common saying "Meine Ehre heißt Treue" on one side and "Verfügungstruppe Deutschland" on the other. Has anyone seen "Verfügungstruppe Deutschland" etchings before? The scabbard is stamped "Elite / Diamart 39 419" on the back side. The leather frog is unmarked and is a deep dark chocolate brown.

really sad to see a nice original k98k ruined like that, as others have said totally fantasy etching. as for the other pieces i havent got a clue about those,isnt really my field, I personally havent had the "honor" for those etched ones, luckely i became a member of bcn so i was well informed before any got in my way, so thanks guys!!

Buck,

As the others have told you, your bayonet is a fake. You may believe anything you like but it will not make your bayonet any more original. When one askes for an opinion (Info needed) one sometimes gets bad news. If you will look on page 129 of my book, "Seitengewehr; History of the German Bayonet 1919-1945" you will see where these fakes are discussed.

Sorry for the bad news, and I would also look very carefully at the daggers if they came from the same source as this bayonet. You might want to put closeups of the daggers on the other forum sections asking for information about them if you wish to know if they are original as well.

George

I did come here looking for information, and I really do thank all who have given their opinion. I respect their time and opinion. But although I don't know much about German military items, I've dealt with thousands of antiques over the years, and I've learned to "never say never" and "get as much info as possible."

By way of example, I recently posted pictures of an unusual antique Belgium item on a forum, and was told by 45 posts that it was a "fake", only to have a man from Brussels post an original catalog picture from the 1880s showing the exact same item. I ultimately sold it to a top level European collector who sold it to a European Museum.

So please forgive me for wanting as much information as possible.

One question still remains, I have examined the small lower case script "d" stamping with a 20x loop and I find it to be stamped in the "etched" away area of the blade. This means it had to be stamped "after" it was etched. did the fakers go to these lengths to try to fool people?

This morning I had the other 3 knives authenticated and they are "real" and very "fine" examples of vintage WWII military daggers.

by the way, I didn't pay much for this bayonet, and if all this posting helps someone down the road, it will be worth the debate. I thank you again.

Buck Stix,

Believe me your not the first who has been taken by these fake etches on what are perhaps truly original service bayonets. I have an entire page devoted to these fake etches in my book on page 53. The balance of the Red Flags and Reproductions chapter will help you avoid making etched dress bayonet mistakes in the future. Please do not put off collecting etched dress bayonets because of one bad experience as the future for having the beautiful blades adorn your wall or add excitement to your military display is well worth the time to investigate this area of the hobby. If you like I will be glad to send you a book, or just go to my web-site: vonryansexpress, click on Edged Weapons for original Third Reich etched dress bayonets for sale...many used in my book. You may also contact me at wayjoy@earthlink.net or call (702) 242-1290 with any questions concerning etched dress bayonets if you buy the book or not.

Best,
Wayne Techet

Hello, Your bayonet is a normal Wehmacht accepted production "F.Herder A.Sn." from Solingen, probably dated 1939 or 1940 on spine of blade near crossguard, the leather washer is not origin on this blade, when You remove the grips , You should find remains of blueing on tang area,important is that Your piece have not a flashguard, so it was lost by assembling after etching, there should be a small WaA253 on end of rifle slot on back of hangrip, the grips are not correct for this period, should be dark plastik and not red color. So the piece is missmatch with a Elite DIAMANT scabbard.You could look to the etched area, the motto of the Verfuegungs Truppe self is problem, this name was never used, should be SS added and the unit strenght. best regards,Andy
the d is normal part of the serial number, and was added by bayonet producer.
Ps here is the BCN official allert page!!! It would be great add the link here.
Fake

Thank for for the added information. Yes, there is Blue under the grips. There is no Wa253 on the end but there are sign of buffing here so it may have been removed.

I had seen some people comment that these are collectable also. Where does one go to sell this bayonet?

Buck

I would be interested in it if the price is right, it is however not one of the original lot made in the 70's as it is not matching, the first and best were all mint matching blades. This is either one of the second lot I duscussed or one of the newer Eastern Europe ones (i'd go for the latter becuase of the mismatch the washer , the lack of flashguard, and grips). There are no places to sell these specifically other than EBAY and if you say its a fake most people will ignore it. I forgot to mention that there was another lot of these fantasy blades made earlier in the UK, including the very nice "reverse" etched blades with Silver letters on a blued back ground (see the one on my site)

You are right to to "doubt" people who cry fake, i have come across a large number of these experts in this field. Especially with older items, and even the books have got it wrong, Watts and WHites for example has the Kukri fake in as a real blade and the newer ABC series has several dubious pieces. It is always best to get second opinions, and the more on the edge an item is the more you need to do your research

Thank you. This one had the background etched away leaving the letters raised. I think that the background may have been blue at one time and has now been mostly faded or buffed.

And yes, I always get as many opinions as I feel comfortable with, and then I formulate my own conclusions.

The antique I mentioned earlier had 45 posts calling it a FAKE, saying it was not original. When the Man from Belgium posted the original 1880 catalog picture showing the item to be original, not another comment was made. Not even an "oops".

Buck Stix,

You can't go wrong in asking question about 98K in this forum, and I have to agree that all of the above comments are correct.

Andy is also correct to point out that the leather buffer is a later add on, the grips should be black & missing the flashguard. What was not mentioned is the brown frog, it is actually for a dress bayonet.

Regarding the 'd' which "looks like it was done after the etchings". If I understand you correctly, you mean the stamp does not look the same as the serial numbers above, right ? This is possibly because the 'd' was affected by the acid when the etchings were done.

Your experience with the Belgian item is not a surprise, although I don't know what that 'item' was but I suppose it is not a popular piece. But this kind of etched 98Ks is a well known fake amongst the collecting society. Carl has special interest in these blades and he has done a lot of work in tracking down the source and identifying different 'generations' of these fakes.

By the way, your other 3 blades looks good, at least from a distance ! But the silver one is a Heer dagger while the gold one is a Kreigsmarine.

Regards,

Keith

Hello Buck Stix, I just sold one of these on eban about a month ago, I already had one of these in my "fake etch" collecction. I even put in the description that the K98 was a post war etch, the bayonet went for 275.00, a fair price for a Faux etch on a real k98
Just a work of advise if you go the eban route make no mention of the wording on the bayonet and ask that the bidders get photos from you instead of posting them on eban or they will boot your auction and might suspend you from eban (it has happend to me a few times).
Good luck.
RGRDS

The reverse etch i mention is not the same as yours, which is the normal way with the design being burtn into the surface leaving the letters proud, on mine the whole blade must have been etched to leave just the letters proud without any other twiddly bits. THis has left the lettering proud of the surface, it has been blued and the raised letters polished to leave silver letters on a blued blade

quote:

And yes, I always get as many opinions as I feel comfortable with, and then I formulate my own conclusions.

The antique I mentioned earlier had 45 posts calling it a FAKE, saying it was not original. When the Man from Belgium posted the original 1880 catalog picture showing the item to be original, not another comment was made. Not even an "oops".

Buck you have to remember one thing. Bayonet collectors are students of military history and researchers. We are not ash and trash antique collectors. You have "come to mecca" for bayonet information.

the little "d" was applied before the bayonet had serial numbers put on it.
The Herder combat bayonet is missing a flashguard and the incorrect vintage of bakelite grips on it. Put it on fleabay like the posters on this forum have suggested. Some idiot will want to belive it is real and you will get over 200 bucks for it but less than 400 for it. Take the frog off and sell it separately since it is not the correct frog for a model 3 84/98 bayonet.