UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons German Sword & Miniatures Forum Why Eickhorn Prinz Eugen & SS?

Can anyone elaborate on why the Eickhorn Prinz Eugen was chosen by certain members as thier saber of choice? The swords in and of themself were devoid of any deliniating SS markings. Why not a different pattern heer saber? We've seen period photos of the Eugen in wear and am curious as to why.

Thanks,
T

I believe the idea that the Prinz Eugen saber was favored by the SS originates with John Angolia when he identified a saber carries by a member of the ss Prinz Eugen division as a Prinz Eugen saber. Other than that one photo, I am not aware of any evidence that the SS wore or favored the Prinz Eugen saber and I am not sure that the saber in question is a Prinz Eugen (Swords of the Third Reich p 131) I personally do not believe there is any connectioin between the SS and the Prinz Eugen saber. just my opinion, fwiw. Joe S

The Eugen may have been liked by the SS because of the style and shape of the eagle.

I agree with JOE S. Plus I`d throw in the $$$ factor of an otherwise fairly common sword, "hyped" to get a few more bucks.
JMO!!

In Johnsons, v2 sword book, theres a photo of a Eugen with an SS portepee, it may be period/it may not. I'd have to dig it out.

T

After finding the photo I had mentioned in Johnsons, it actually is a compartive photo between the Eugen and the SS degen. No real other mention of that Eickhorn and the SS.

I have always though it to be a bunch of "BS" insted of "SS". The fire gilt on the Eugen has a tendency to come off leaving the hilt silver. This problem along with the name being the same as the SS divison and a little greed may be why.

quote:

Originally posted by mrfabulous:
I agree with JOE S. Plus I`d throw in the $$$ factor of an otherwise fairly common sword, "hyped" to get a few more bucks.
JMO!!

In the early 70's a PE with an original to the piece SS officers portapee showed up in a pawn shop in Harker Heights (Ft.Hood) Texas. It was a straight vet purchase and was for sale for $35.00. I don't know what if anything this adds to the discussion but it was what it was.

Hi Tex,
The subject has been breached primarily because some folks attribute the Eickhorn Prinz Eugen to both the Heer and the SS. There are a couple mentions of it in literature. The 1st I could find was from John Angolia in his Swords Of German book from the 80's. Some here are speculating that this theory was cerated to increase the value of a typically Officer/NCO style FM saber. Johnson in his newest sword series has only 1 mention of it. Volume 2 has an image of a degen side by side with a Eugen saber, both sporting standard SS knots. Additionaly there exists a period photo of an SS officer rollinig with the Eugen. To the best of everyones knowledge that photo is the only period example documented.

Hope this clears it up and sheds some light on the discussion point.

T

Its possible that an SS officer was allowed to wear or purchase an Army saber, perhaps it was a gift, or a graduation present, or whatever.That would account for the occasional situation where a Prinz Eugen is acquired from a vet with an original SS knot. However, to my knowledge no orignal source documentation exists for the suggestion that the Prinz Eugen was regularly worn by the SS. I suspect that very few were actually worn by the SS, and that MOST of the so call vet purchases with the ss knot are questionable. Joe S

Could the possibility of an officer with dual membership provide examples in limited quantity? However, if that were the case, what would preclude the officer from utilizing any other officer Heer sabel? Perhaps the period photo that has been used to justify the notion that the Eugen has been used as an SS saber, came from specifically an officer whos circumstnaces were just that. There are period photos of police officers bearing an army officer saber as opposed to the police degen.

As I know, there are two models. The golden one for Heer officers and a silver one for the Waffen-SS.

Pictures of my silver one with the SS runes stamped in the lower side of the crossguard will follow as soon as I'am able to transfer the pictures from my mobile to the notebook (actually I'm searching the usb-cable :-( )

... and under the gold they are also silvern. Now the question how many Eugen sabers where used from the early SS? How often you find such sabers on period pictures?

Robert is quite right... the base metal is silver colored and the gilt comes right off of these swords. The sword was offered in gilt by Eickhorn in the catalog, not silver.

Waffen-SS officers (like all officers) bought their own uniforms and swords for the most part and they could buy the Prinz Eugen if they wished. Any attribution of this sword to the SS would only be because an officer chose to buy one and wear it. I tend to agree that the sword is often hyped as some sort of alternative SS sword to raise the value of a sword with what is generally felt to be a defective gilt finish that disappears quite easily.

The Eugen's base metal is some type of zinc alloy. I suspect that's the reason the gilt will not remain on the hilt if it's handled evern moderately. As opposed the aluminum hilted sabers which retain thier gilt finish for the most part then thier brass hilted counterparts.

Is is plausable that an officer had dual membership and opted to wear the army saber than a honor degen or M-36? I suspect in certain cases this was true. We've seen photos of police officers with army sabers in wear so one could assume that held true on occassion with SS officers.

T

1
sorry pics to large
I've to reduce it first

here they are
1

2

That is the first SS inspection stamp I have seen on a Prinz Eugen. And they appear rather large.

I'm with Dow. Never have seen sigrune stamp on a Eugen. It seems a bit out of place. The inspection stamp strikes me as wrong.

I'm not aware of silver hilted PEs. Base metal is a typically a zinc composite, and after gilt dissappears, silver colored base metal appears and can subsequently pollished to highlight silver color.

I do believe Prinz Eugen models were utilized by the SS, but also to others with dual affiliation. In both Johnsons V2 and Angolia, the PE is listed or at least, implied to be also used by the SS, and obviously thier heer counterparts as a wehrmacht dress sword. Again, never come accross or sean a naturally silver PE.

I do see greed as a plausible explanation for creating this theory, but if that is the case, where and when did it begin? If it began with Angolia, what were the motives? I doubt he had a glut of PEs. I'm curious to hear from other members on the theory.

Remove the backstrap and admire the finish underneath, unless they got that too!!

Just noticed a Eugen on the WAF being sold with an SS Knot. Seller says that it came with the sword.

Yep. Noticed it as well. I suspect that SS-Eugen connection is somewhat grounded in fact, but it is probably also fact that it is hyped for profiteering.

The PE sword is a Paul Casberg/Eickhorn patented design. IMO It should not have an SS Kulture stamp as those were used only on things officially designed by the SS. They are design stamps not inspection stamps.

Thanks Houston,

quote:

It should not have an SS Kulture stamp as those were used only on things officially designed by the SS.

I think, you mean the runes in the oktagon, as on police and ss sword usually found

quote:

They are design stamps not inspection stamps.

Do you mean the runes shown above?

Sorry but I do mean the ones on your sword. The Kulture stamp is not always the same. On WKC Police swords it looks the same as yours but is on the blade. It also sometimes is seen in a diamond.
Also--I agree with the others that close inspection will reveal remaining traces of the gold on the hilt.

I have seen all kinds of knots on vet bring backs. Many times dagger portapees on a sword handle.

A sword by any other name would still LOOK GREAT.

With all due respect the SS Kulturzeichen (intertwined SS stamp) in it various permutations was not an official (or unofficial) design stamp. If it was an �SS design stamp� it would be on all German police swords instead of roughly only half of them. From what is generally considered a quality maker the use of what seems to be a really bad/inferior grade of pot metal for the hilts for many �Prinz Eugen� sabers to me is a mystery. Although it would seem to be of fairly late manufacture.

What is perhaps even more interesting is that the SS division Prinz Eugen (Fran�ois-Eug�ne, Prince of Savoy-Carignan - Prinz Eugen von Savoyen) who was born in France but served the Austrian crown) was not formed until 1942 after the termination of dress weapon production. With not Germans - but �ethnic� Germans from Yugoslavia supplemented with other Volksdeutschen. The point being where is the �connection� to the early SS for for what was a proprietary Eickhorn design (as was previously mentioned)? To add some additional input as to the more probable true purpose of the Kulturzeichen here are some more images as seen on various SS ceramics. FP

FP You have really said nothing about what you may consider the "true purpose". Just because everything designed under SS control is not so marked does not mean that the stamp is not a design stamp. Allach designs were under the control of the SS.

Houston, From what I can see I�m in agreement with you that I don�t care for the markings on the sword posted. My concern is more with generalized statements that I think in the past on occasion have misled collectors because they believed what was in print or what somebody told them. �Facts� that had no provable basis, and often turned out to be somebody�s best guess trying to explain some observed phenomena.

The �design stamp� (Musterschutz - like some of the NSKK daggers?) concept on the surface at least seems to be a slight variation of the Prof. Diebitsch trademark/design stamp idea as seen in the latest SS book. No period evidence has ever surfaced to support that idea which seems to have originated in postwar English language sources. Some of the until then unknown and/or unrecognized information that Joe Wotka contributed to the book was: Prospective purchasers of Police Degens were to look for 1) the approved maker (Krebs) trademark AND 2) the SS �Kulturzeichen�. This might be an appropriate place to mention that the Dachau made SS Degens curiously lack not only a trademark - but also the Kulturzeichen. Dachau itself of course being totally under SS control. Both for the production of not only the unmarked SS Degens made there, but the Allach branded (in addition to the SS Kulturzeichen) ceramics, which were sold to the general public to help fund SS activities.

Besides disproving the earlier belief of the Police Degens being created circa 1936 (instead of 1938) pursuant to the above mentioned facts it was also stated in the book that Himmler and the head of the German Police were involved in a plan to restrict production. And that the plan was objected to by other sword makers for what would seem to be obvious financial reasons.

If we step back a moment and look at the broader picture encompassing some uses of the the SS Kulturzeichen (besides for example some otherwise generic Kulturzeichen marked sword accessories like sword hanging accouterments). The M1933 SS daggers that were sold under RZM price controls were understandably without the SS Kulturzeichen. However, the SS Kulturzeichen marked Allach made ceramics along with the M1936 SS daggers had their prices set by the SS (with a substantial markup for the daggers). And as was mentioned earlier the Police Degens are a roughly 50/50 mixed bag of Kulturzeichen marked and not Kulturzeichen marked swords.

What period proof exists that the Kulturzeichen was used as a �design stamp� (Musterschutz or not)? Versus a means to identify commercially produced paramilitary blades to be either sold to, or in the case of the non-Dachau manufactured SS swords presented) to select SS and/or German Police members? Or as was the case with the ceramics, being sold to the general public, with no SS membership required. With the exception of the swords which were presented by Himmler, the underlying motive seems to be profit with the SS being the beneficiary. And with the silver mounted �Birthday Swords� - I think an argument could be made that the Kulturzeichen was used with them as an inspection/acceptance stamp - but that might be a topic for another day.

Attached: A side by side image of the M1936 SS dagger skull/sigrune chain links which have the SS Kulturzeichen - and the skull/sigrune chain links for the Model 1938 SS Standard Bearer�s Gorget which was RZM marked. Regards, FP

The Prinz Eugen Division wasn't even titled that until April 1, 1942. I doubt any SS men wore it before unless they needed a sword in the studio for a photo. Dress blades wern't even made in April 1942 as far as I know. Nobody seems to have connected the dots from date division was named.

Mark

I agree,but for different reasons. The fact that swords were not generally produced at that stage of the war doesnt mean that Eickhorn couldnt supply a few. No doubt, they had inventory on hand, and we know from original source material that firms would routinely trade parts with one another to fill orders late in the war. The late formation of the Prinz Eugen division does as you say, throw more doubt on the idea, but my main reasons for not agreeing with it is that 1) there is no original source material to substantiate the idea,2) there so-called "photographic evidence" requires a lot of imagination and is very questionable, and 3) the occasional "vet buy" with an SS knot is too difficult to prove one way or another and can be the result of someone putting knots on swords at random, which I am sure happened a lot both before and after the sword was brought home.
I believe the legend persists in large part to the large number of collectors or dealers who have invested lots of money in Prinz Eugen sabers and dont want to devalue their investment, so they perpetuate the myth. just my opinion, FWIW. Joe S

This is an interesting discussion indeed. To my knowledge, there is only 1 period photograph of an SS man wearing a PE. Based on that solo photo, it would be difficult to deduce firmly that the PE was adopted by various SS units. The latter argument that certain collectors and dealers perpetuated the myth is certainly more plausible.

This though I ask. Comparitively to other field marshall examples, how many PEs were produced and what was the ratio? Also, what did the PE cost during the period in relation to other Eickhron sabers? We know that most ornate, hand engraved pieces cost the purchaser more, merely based on the time and detail invested during the hand embellishment process as opposed to thier cast counterparts. So where does the PW fall into this? Just about every PE example out there is zinc composite hilted, which theoretically should keep manufacturing cost down and as such the savings should be passed onto the consumer. Putting the SS theory aside, trying to establish what the value of the saber is based on numbers should probably be the litmus test we use. If that were the standard we used, how would it effect value? Would we still see these retailing for $700-1100?

The price of the Prinz Eugen was DM 16.50 which was the price of about half of the army sabers. The other half,including Lutzow, Zeiten,Model 1695, Scharnhorst, Model 1707,, Blucher, Mod 1312, was DM 17.80. The most expensive army saber was Roon at DM 18.65 The vast majority of Prinz Eugens are white metal with a very thin gilt finish, although I have heard that there are some brass ones out there, but very few. Joe S

Joe- Good information. i expected the Roon to be higher priced because it was labor intensive to make. I can't say i'm at all surprised with the prices you quoted from the priod sales catalog.

I think the simple answer is that because the sword had the same name as the PE unit some Officers opted to buy it. Not surprising. Not really an SS sword but carried by some members of the SS PE Division. How many? Who knows-but at least one.

TW gives "Prinz Eugenius, der edle Ritter� (Fran�ois-Eug�ne de Savoie-Carignan) a nice write up in his �SS� book. But in spite of his considerable resources he apparently was unable to provide any kind of additional data or photos to support the original statements in Jack Angolia�s book. Instead repeating the information, and briefly citing a couple of examples he has encountered and discussing the �tradition� (for lack of a better term) that seems to have grown over the years among collectors that the Prinz Eugen is in fact an �SS� saber.

I�m no uniform expert. But I don�t see in the aforementioned picture either a Prinz Eugen collar tab, or cuff title - instead seeing what seems to be more of a �generic� SS officer. And from what I read in the book TW does not cite any specifics making a connection to that particular SS Volunteer Division.

As was noted earlier in the discussion, the year 1942 is critical because not only was the Division formed in an occupied territory from foreign born �ethnic� Germans (being renamed in April). But that was the same year that a Himmler directive was published that Honor Swords would no longer be conferred because of a shortage of steel. And in August (except for special occasions) the SS sword was forbidden from being worn for the rest of the war. My point being that 1942 did not give Prinz Eugen officers (Honor Sword recipients or not) much time or opportunity to acquire swords or wear them. And I can�t imagine an Honor Sword recipient from any SS combat formation being forbidden to wear his sword which was a gift from Himmler, while still permitting non-recipients to wear swords (except for those special occasions where swords were in fact permitted). FP

Dux Eugenius, eques purus.

There where and are always exceptions, I have my doubts that a Prinz Eugen saber was interesting after Stalingrad. Of course there is one photo out with such a saber, we know also SS photos with other sabers or even with WH officer daggers! The pure SS story is just a money story.

Thank You Robert for Dux Eugenius, eques purus (Prinz Eugenius, der edle Ritter) . I was aware of the music commemorating his victory over the Turks at Belgrade, but did not know that a Latin version existed. It also I think helps explain why my early 18th century Austrian Dragoon Pallasch has his name in Latin on the blade. Best Regards, FP

Fred, your post makes me honestly happy.

quote:

Originally posted by Sword-Fish:
Hi Tex,
The subject has been breached primarily because some folks attribute the Eickhorn Prinz Eugen to both the Heer and the SS. There are a couple mentions of it in literature. The 1st I could find was from John Angolia in his Swords Of German book from the 80's. Some here are speculating that this theory was cerated to increase the value of a typically Officer/NCO style FM saber. Johnson in his newest sword series has only 1 mention of it. Volume 2 has an image of a degen side by side with a Eugen saber, both sporting standard SS knots. Additionaly there exists a period photo of an SS officer rollinig with the Eugen. To the best of everyones knowledge that photo is the only period example documented.

Hope this clears it up and sheds some light on the discussion point.

T

Hi Tom,

For everyone who hasnt seen it.
Here is the photo in Angolia's book.

.

Cheers,
Ibrahim,
Singapore.

I dont think I have ever seen the other photos, but I have never believed that the sword in Angolia's photos is a Prinz Eugen. Its way to fuzzy to say what it is except it clearly isnt the standard Degen. It could be just about anything. Joe S

Thanks for posting the photo Ibrahim. This wasn't the photo I was thinking of. I thought I recalled seeing a image of an SS officer wearing what was a clearly identifiable PE. However, now i'm questioning my recollection at this point. As far as the image above goes, I honestly could not say definitively if that is a PE he's wearing. Just not clear enough.