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Posted 12 September 2004 11:38
There is much confusion between Strafvollzug and Justiz uniforms. Strafvollzug Beamte might be considered as prison wardens while Justiz Beamte might be considered as court officials such as bailifs. This distinction is actually not so clear cut and there seems to be much overlap and integration in their duties. What seems to be more clear is that they wore the identical sword with a gold finish for Strafvollzug Officials and a silver finish for Justiz Officials. Biesen- und Effektenfarbe colors are more confusing with red being associated with Strafvollzug and green being associated with Justiz.

Anyone with regulations for Strafvollzug or Justiz please chime in here.

Bernd Ostermann has two tunics that give every appearance of being for the Strafvollzug. Here is a view of the first one that seems to conform to known examples.

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson


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Posted 12 September 2004 11:43
View of the collar tabs that have green backing with gold piping and a single gold litzen stripe. These tabs have been observed with a button at one end of the stripe but these tabs do not have a button at the back edge. Notice the green wool collar as well.

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson


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Posted 12 September 2004 11:46
Close up view of the insignia showing gold and green Meister boards. This is an early tunic with three hooks at the collar and shows much wear.

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson


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Posted 12 September 2004 11:50
View of the red piping that is generally associated with the Strafvollzug. Interestingly, this tunic has red piping on both flaps of the tunic front. This tunic also has a sword/bayonet slot and Bernd feels it may be a Weimar period tunic that was worn into the NS Zeit.

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson


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Posted 12 September 2004 11:59
View of the back of the tunic showing the typical four panel cut. This tunic has no inside breast pocket but does have the pockets in in the boxed tail lining. The two smooth silver buttons at the tail are belt ramps and all buttons are Assmann marked.

Note the color on some of these photos is a little off, but the tunic is in fact green with a green collar. The piping is the proper carmine red and not Artillery red as it tended to come out in the photos. One can clearly see the wear caused by wearing the belt with a cross strap over the right shoulder.

George

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson


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Gary8
Posted 13 September 2004 12:45
Hello George

I like that, I do not know what time frame it is from but it looks good, here is my jope style. The peaked cap I have been told is later justice with black cap band and schupo piping. I do worry though that it is post war, looks right inside though and is dated 1938, totally unissued. The black swaetband is still very soft.


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Gary8
Posted 13 September 2004 12:48
Jacket front


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Gary8
Posted 13 September 2004 12:53
Collar


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Gary8
Posted 13 September 2004 12:58
Back


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Gary8
Posted 13 September 2004 13:01
Cap Front


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Gary8
Posted 13 September 2004 13:05
Side


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Gary8
Posted 13 September 2004 13:09
Inside

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Gary8,


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patrick
Posted 13 September 2004 15:47
Great idea for a thread George, this is by far a very confusing area with little ref material.

I was able to pick my tunic off of EBAN earlier this year, it is a bit worn by for the price I wasn't complaining. Anyway the only other items I have are two pair of boards.

I just need the pink piped set know. hehehe

Gary love the visor, I remember when you first posted it, glad you found some info on it. Very nice and clean.

pat

"I only had two beers officer, I swear."

"In GOD we trust, everyone else keep your hands were we can see them"


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patrick
Posted 13 September 2004 15:48
2

"I only had two beers officer, I swear."

"In GOD we trust, everyone else keep your hands were we can see them"


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patrick
Posted 13 September 2004 15:50
3

"I only had two beers officer, I swear."

"In GOD we trust, everyone else keep your hands were we can see them"


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Gary8
Posted 13 September 2004 16:22
I guess this cap could go with the first uniform


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Gary8
Posted 13 September 2004 16:30
side


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Gary8
Posted 13 September 2004 16:45
Back


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Gary8
Posted 13 September 2004 16:55
Cord


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Gary8
Posted 13 September 2004 17:03
inside


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johnrtse
Posted 13 September 2004 23:09
I'm really enjoying all the great uniforms in this thread.

Just an observation; I don't see any national eagles on the breast or sleeve- Were they used on these uniforms?

Thanks in advance!
John
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Posted 14 September 2004 12:10
John,

These uniforms do not seem to have utilized a sleeve eagle that we are aware of.

Gary & Pat,

OK, you guys have shown the open collar and the closed collar Justiz uniforms, so here is the earlier style with concealed buttons. I think we can all agree that these green piped uniforms are Justiz as opposed to Strafvollzug uniforms. Interestingly, these all have gold buttons and the Justiz sword is silver. Bernd's uniform has silver buttons and the Strafvollzug sword is gold finished.

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson


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Posted 14 September 2004 12:16
Here is Bernd's second uniform. This one is very similar to the first one and shows much wear and signs of alteration to conceal the red piping. We both believe this to also be a Strafvollzug tunic.

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson


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Posted 14 September 2004 12:20
Notice that the collar on this tunic is piped in red but the front is not. Actually, the front was piped in red but the piping has been removed from the exterior flap during the time of use.

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson


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Posted 14 September 2004 12:22
View of the concealed piping on the front of the tunic and the cuffs. For some reason the tunic was altered to conceal this red piping during the time of use. Interestingly, the piping remained around the collar. Perhaps it was too difficult to remove?

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson


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Posted 14 September 2004 12:26
View of the insignia showing the silver buttons and white cellon and green boards and collar tabs.

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson


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patrick
Posted 14 September 2004 12:27
George,

Very nice uniform you just posted, like mine it seems to have been worn allot. The first uniform you posted what type of collar tabs are those, thats the first time I've seen them.

pat

"I only had two beers officer, I swear."

"In GOD we trust, everyone else keep your hands were we can see them"
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Posted 14 September 2004 12:29
View of the interior showing the tailor markings with the interior breast pocket. All buttons are smooth silver and Assmann marked.

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson


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Posted 14 September 2004 12:32
Final view of the back showing the four panel cut. Notice the similarities and differences in the two tunics. Bernd feels this is also a Weimar Republic period tunic that was carried over into the NS Zeit.

The one thing that these tunics seem to have in common is that they show heavy wear. I tend to believe that they were simply worn, and altered, until they were about worn out. That includes mine as the neck and fabric shows very heavy wear. It also appears that the buttons were moved to the outside of the flap at some time in its life, perhaps to meet new regulations to look more like the example that Pat shows. My tunic was manufactured as a concealed button tunic however.

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson


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Posted 14 September 2004 13:10
Pat,

I believe the collar tabs on Bernd's first uniform are the later regulation tabs. I think Ernst has a pair with the buttons at the end of the litzen. They would be like the ones on your tunic except have the single litzen if they had buttons. The button may have been removed from his tabs, but I cannot tell.

Here is a set of the red (pinkish) backed shoulder boards that I believe are later regulation for Strafvollzug. The cap cord is also for the Strafvollzug (or perhaps Justiz) and is similar to the one on Gary's dark cap with red piping.

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson


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Jiri Libal sr.

Posted 14 September 2004 17:14
ORPO,
both of Bernd's tunics have silver (glatt) buttons?
First of them has gold boards and collar tabs piping?
Second has white/silver boards and tabs piping?
Both of these tunics are from the same man (or purchased together)?
In my 40 years experience with German militaria I never saw such a combination - gold/yellow Effekten & silver/white buttons!!! That must be old uniform with new insignias (immediately after insignia change I think).

BTW.: After my opinion ROSETTES were changed to PIPS during NAZI era and not vice versa (but I hav for this idea no exaxt reason)

For problems with webmaster of "tenzor" I put my Justizbeamte table here:
http://insigniainfo.topcities.com/forum/JB.html
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Posted 14 September 2004 18:01
Jiri,

Yes, both of Bernd's tunics have plain silver (glatt) buttons. Yes, The first tunic has gold boards and collar tab piping. Yes, the second has whitish cellon (and green without the red backing shoulderboards) but it is possible the cellon is faded and it may have been gold at one time. The tunic is heavily worn and I cannot tell for certain on this tunic.

I do not think the two tunics came from the same man, but I do think they are early tunics that have been continued in service after a regulation change. I agree with you that they are probably old uniforms with new regulaltion insignia. That is the only reason I can think of to hide the red piping on the front and cuffs of the second uniform.

I also tend to agree with you that the rosettes are early and were probably changed over to pips on later shoulderboards. The rosettes do seem to have been available in catalogs during the war however. Perhaps for other Beamte as well as Justiz u. Strafvollzug. The glatt buttons confused me as well and that is why I pointed them out. They do appear original to the two tunics.

Here is another set of my shoulderboards that have the red underlay as on the pair that I showed with the rosettes instead of pips.

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson


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Posted 14 September 2004 18:11
Jiri,

Here is a close up view of the shoulder boards on my tunic with concealed buttons. They are gold cellon with green underlay. They also have the Beamte rosettes instead of the pips.

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson


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goldfasan

Posted 14 September 2004 18:38
Heres one I owned at one time - it was a beauty came with papers from the man.

"He who hesitates is lost- is not only lost but miles from the next exit"

gold # 0299


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Posted 15 September 2004 10:07
Goldfasan,

Yes, I remember your nice red piped uniform. You also had a green piped one as I recall. Was this one with the concealed buttons dated? This fellow was identified as a Strafvollzug Beamte, correct?

Jiri,

I have a couple of corrections from Bernd. He did receive the two tunics together about 14 years ago and believes they were supposed to have come from the same person in Berlin. He also states the insignia on the second tunic was faded gold color cellon and not silver as previously described. He cannot find any evidence of a button on the collar tab of the first tunic.

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
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goldfasan

Posted 15 September 2004 17:03
Jiri - Yes, he was assigned as a court bailiff. If interested in the tunic Bob Rodgers now owns it and I do beleive he wants to sell it.

"He who hesitates is lost- is not only lost but miles from the next exit"

gold # 0299
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Posted 19 September 2004 12:40
Gary,

Here is a cap of Bernd's that is similar to your Justiz cap. It is lightweight twill with a black wool capband and green piping. The cap is lined with a brown-grey silk liner with a celuloid sweat shield with no maker. The cap has never had a capcord and he has not removed the SS insignia as the prongs do not pierce the silk liner. The visor is bound on the edge, has a checkerboard pattern, and is painted grey on the underside.

George

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson


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Posted 19 September 2004 12:45
View of the interior of the grey leather sweatband showing prison security markings for Zweibr�cken. There is a large 2424 stamped on the other side of the interior sweatband. Bernd believes this may be a latewar officer quality cap.

George

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson


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SmileGreat "putting together" - thanks!
Strafvollzugsbeamten & Justizbeamten are one great "Questionmark" for most of us, I think. For several years I'm trying to make some "Zusammensetzung" of Spartefarben, uniforms, insignias etc. of that mystery group of government officials but with very little success.
Very helpfull is Gary's Dienstbekleidungsvorchrift( much thanks, Gary, one more time), but this regulation is dated 1942. I myself have only one table of rank insignia (nondated) - but it must be pre-1942, I think.
Two things are from Gary's "Dienstbekleidungsvorschrift der Reichsjustizverwaltung (DBeklV) clear:
1) Uniform color:
feldgrau bis 1942, after 1942 dunkelgruengrau
2) Stars versus Rosetten:
Sterne bis 1942 - Rosetten after 1942

After DBeklV : "In Strafvollzugsdienst ist die Farbe der Kragenspiegel hellgruen, in Justizwachtmeisterdient entspricht sie der Farbe der Amtsroben..."
But what color were "Amtroben" cannot I find - I know in BRD is black, but was black in 3rd Reich too?
After my table (http://www.tenzor.cz/lbsr/forum/JB.html) is Reichsgericht & Volksgerichtjustizbeamten-color red, for others (Landesgericht?) was hellgruen

Form DBeklV 1942: "... Reichsjustizverwaltung und fruehere Landesjustizverwaltung..."
Shoulderboars backing hellgr�n for Straffvollzugs- & Justizbeamten too.

Bill, can You share your sources? And has anybody another sources?

Thnx

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OOOh, I forgot!
Here is my one (and I have only this one) shouderboard - it must be ater 1942 (due Rosetten):

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