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This dagger was on Ebay but the auction was ended. Some of you may have been following it. It has the very early pointy winged eagle and is a full Rohm Eickhorn. It also has all kinds of condition problems. Looks like someone took a hammer to the scabbard shell... I've never seen one so dented. I'm not sure that the dagger can even be inserted. The scabbard fittings look surprisingly good. The blade has surface rust and corrosion, and the very tip is broken off. It has the early motto with the "A" in Alles. Given the rarity of this dagger what do you think the value is considering the condition?

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What about this trademark? Doesn't look like the normal Eickhorn.

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Someone spoke about this dagger in an earlier topic. It is a unique piece, because it is the only full Röhm SA "Christmas dagger" that was ever seen by a member (dealer?) but not bought because of the bad condition and broken tip, the member (dealer?) later regretted not to have bought it...

I have a similar Christmas SA ground Röhm with this early "C.E." Carl Eickhorn trademark.

Very interesting post, thanks!

Best greetings,

Herman


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What is the sellers current asking price?


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The seller is taking bids. I would bid a fair price if I could get an idea of its value.

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Excuse my ignorance as a newbie, but what is a Christmas SA ?

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Do a search of the forum archives. There a number of threads on Christmas daggers. They are early prototype SA's.

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quote:
Originally posted by Skyline Drive:
The seller is taking bids. I would bid a fair price if I could get an idea of its value.


Skyline... I don't think there is an answer to this question other than the obvious... whatever you're willing to pay...

You have good knowledge... you know what feels comfortable and what doesn't.

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The value: I would say that its rarety makes this piece (full Röhm) priceless, of course there is the condition that makes it less attractive as a collectable dagger.
There is also the historical value: let's not forget that the "Christmas" SA dagger is the mother of all 3R daggers: the first that the Nazis ever let made in extremely small quantities of course... maybe the rarest dagger of all?
It belongs in a museum in my opinion!

Best greetings,

Herman


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Oh yess, in case anyone would wonder: I have nothing to do with the sale of this dagger.

Actually, I would like to know the E-Bay objectnumber, so I can see who is selling it.

Best greetings,

Herman


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I know of one other one over in Germany Wink I am waiting since years to get this one anyday but the day will come.

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Mike very interesting.
Thanks for sharing!

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Very interesting.

A small correction - There two full Rohm prototypes known in the US. An EP&S daggers known in Colorado that was shown at 2006 MAX and one with a broken tip but in good condition from the Julian Millestone (sp?) collection. There is also a full Rohm Eickhorn shown in a French Reference book about 25 years old and it is not beat up.

The one pictured above could well be the real thing. I hope that better pictures will surface. If anyone gets some, I would appreciate copies and I will NOT post or share them.

Value ? As much as the owner can get Big Grin, but seriously, there is no precedent. A lot more needs to be known about condition.

Dave

PS - although I do not think this is case, beware as the early "A" SA/NSKK daggers are being faked as we discuss this. All of the better fakes are from Europe.

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The following photos are provided by the Seller...

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Thanks for these pics, SDP.

And thanks for your corrections, Dave, you are the expert one these daggers.

Looks like a full copper scabbard (mine is copper plated), that is why it is so misformed: copper ones are much more vulnerable than steel based ones.

The grip of this dagger appears to be in great condition, with a well centered eagle (often not the case on these daggers).

Best greetings,

Herman


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Scott,

Looks like the real thing to me. If it ends up in the US, I would like to examine it.

Do we know who is selling it as,obviously, I am interested in owning it myself.

Dave

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this is really something ! WoW !

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Any news on this sale?

Could someone E-mail me the EBay item number at hw@despontin.com. I would appreciate a lot! Thanks in advance.

The full Röhm pictured in the French reference book shows the early Eickhorn "C.E." logo but it is not sure that it has the eagle with pointed wings in its grip, because this is not shown at the published picture, the blade is used for an example of a SA full Röhm. No scabbard is shown eather.

Best greetings,

Herman


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It was pulled from Ebay and is now in private auction with bidding up to $1500.

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Put me in for $1550.00 Thank you....a***y (157)
original bidder


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do you have the contact information for the seller?

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Gentlemen... I have been inundated with requests to provide contact information for the seller. I have not responded. I would have been a moron to invite the competition. Does anyone here NOT get that concept?

That being said, I am no longer interested in obtaining the dagger. The seller wants at least $3000 for it. As rare as it is, it is not worth it to me considering the condition. I emailed the seller about providing his contact information to others. Here is his answer:

Thank you for your response, but I think we have enough interest at the moment with some gentlemen who have been with us since the beginning. If something changes, though, I'll let you know. Thanks again, Mike.

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Nice one Skyline...

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sorry skyline but it was you that informed use that it was up for private auction did you then expect people not to ask for details???

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Dopes this one fall into the Chraistmas catagory - A factory ground Aesculap - Beautiful piece either way

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picture 2

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picture 3

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picture 4 last one

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No... this is not a, "Christmas dagger". It's a ground Rohm, produced much later on.

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I added a post and it only shows up if you click on my user name - What did I do wrong ??

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Who got it finally?

Any news?

Hope it was/will be a GDC member.

Best greetings,

Herman


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I agree, I'm curious on the latest.


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Does anybody know the latest score, on the sale of this item?

FJS

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Christmas arrived in November this year. M___ & B____ if you're reading this, you guys are great!

Smile

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Drum roll please.

Ladies and gentlemen, a GDC exclusive.

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Congratulations on a great buy!, Enjoy!
nats

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Yes, congrats! Nice to have one of these!

Regards
Russell

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AWSOME!!!!
Congrats!
Johnny


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My Avatar = My dagger security system! wink
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Rev,

Nice work on a really rare piece, Marry Christmas a little early!


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Fantastic!!!! Congratulations! ~ Ian


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NICE JOB : )

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These daggers were all Rohm daggers, albeit most had the inscription ground later on. The condition of this one is terrible and it's going to take a lot of "tuning up" to make it look any better.

I doubt if it will look like this long...maybe I'm wrong, but it is really not a joy to look at in this condition..so, is it going to stay like this or go into the body shop? It should be very interesting to see what develops with it over time.

Congrats to the buyer in any event...what's gonna win in the long run is my question; 1. history (as found today) or 2. condition (heavy scabbard work and polishing of the blade)?

Mark Roll Eyes

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Good luck to you Eric, such a rare dagger and very hard to come by.

It must have cost you a packet... Big Grin Razz Cool Wink

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What a great dagger. Congrats Eric. Your the best Eban "Pulled-Sniper" out there. Wink

I was surprised to hear "skyline" pulled out at at 3K. That's NO money for this super rare piece. Eek

Serge

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Great dagger ! Congratulations.

It has more value as it is (perhaps oil the blade)than tuned up in any way.

Dave

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Great score. No doubt in my mind as to originality. Looks like the one I owned except for the copper scabbard. As Dave has stated, don't do any restoration. Congratulations

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Congratulations Rev!

You got yourself an almost unique dagger!

Enjoy the moment, it will not be easy to repeat this very often in my opinion. Wink

Best greetings,

Herman


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Very nice score Rev, I would have traded my wife for it. Regards Scott


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For Gods sake just leave things the way you get them,Nothing wrong with this the way it is.

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Guys, rest assured that I'm in no hurry to "pimp my ride." It's not going anywhere and nothing is going to happen to it. After the last three weeks it's nice to just sit here and look at it. Right now my plans are that I have no plans.

My only course of action at present is that I'm trying to document the chain of possession. The owner during the last approximate 60 years is alive and known to the sellers. The original veteran who acquired the piece from Europe may or may not still be around. I'll see what I can find out before it's too late.

And I would like to offer some corrections if I may. It's doesn't look terrible and there's nothing wrong with it. It's quite beautiful in it's own way; I wouldn't change a thing. Wink

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I suspect I'm not the only one drooling over this dagger, whatever you paid, I sure it was a bargain! This has to be the most desirable SA dagger configuration, period.

You have a prize piece, I wouldn't mess with it either, it has a distinct character and sense of history. Congrats, glad it went to an enthusiast & member.

Red

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Congratulation for getting this super rare and unique SA dagger. Eek
Well done and enjoy it ! Cool

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Can somebody tell me how late this mark was used into the 3rd Reich period, it was certainly used from about 1929 onwards, I would like to know whether it was used later than say late 1933??
Cheers

Gary

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Gary,

My opinion is that it was used through the prototype* development of the SA daggers.

The reason I hold that opinion is that I am aware of three blades with this mark and have seen a photo of a fourth.

The first of the regular production Eickhorn SA daggers had the large oval trademark and these were 1934 vintage.

This same mark is seen on the Fire leader's dagger.

Dave

*They are called "Christmas Daggers" because they were given out before Christmas of 1933 to senior SA men. This is what I have read and is based on news reports in Solingen trade papers at the time. I have not read those original papers so I could be entirely wrong.

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Dave

Thank you for the explanation, at this moment I'm just interested in the time frame of this mark, I believe I have seen it on very early HJ knives as well???.

Gary

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Gary, the one I have seen on HJ knives is very close to the ones on the first Eickhorn SAs and the Fire Leader. Same squirrel*, but no CE underneath inside the oval but Underneath is SOLINGEN and under that in smaller letters is GES.GESCHUTZT. This is an early no-ricasso knife.

Hope this helps

Dave

* I use Anthony Carter's book a lot, but in this case it does not clear up what exact vintage these are. The book contains drawings rather than photos and does not mention the size of the marks.

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Gary,

Another point that is short on proof. I have always heard that the HJ knife was the very first Nazi-marked Edged weapon. It had a swaz before the Nazis even came to power.

That might account for that earlier trademark on the older HJ knives. The one I mentioned above has an anodized scabbard, which I think is early.

Dave

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quote:
Originally posted by Dave Hohaus:
Gary,

My opinion is that it was used through the prototype* development of the SA daggers.

The reason I hold that opinion is that I am aware of three blades with this mark and have seen a photo of a fourth.

The first of the regular production Eickhorn SA daggers had the large oval trademark and these were 1934 vintage.

This same mark is seen on the Fire leader's dagger.

Dave

*They are called "Christmas Daggers" because they were given out before Christmas of 1933 to senior SA men. This is what I have read and is based on news reports in Solingen trade papers at the time. I have not read those original papers so I could be entirely wrong.


Does anyone know where copies of these news reports can be found? Are they printed in any reference book? If so, which one?

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Here is the mark that is found on early HJ's.

Best greetings,

Herman

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That's the one.

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Here is one from a Fire Leaders dagger

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The dagger is very interesting, and one cannot help but wonder who was originally gifted this dolch, what was his position, and what had he done to warrant such a gift..

An early old comrade to be sure, quite possibly overseeing some of the earliest street fighting days in the early /mid 20's..

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An interesting thread from 13 years ago that bears reading again in light of the discussions here and elsewhere about early daggers.

Dave

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Hi Dave,

A few days ago Tom Wittmann made this video about early SA daggers, which also includes this threads Christmas dagger and others.
Hope I can place this link here, if not you can more it somewhere more appropriate.


-Serge

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Serge,

OK here

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Anyone have questions or thoughths to share ?

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Originally Posted by Dave
Anyone have questions or thoughths to share ?

Dave brought up a great question, I think we need to join forces and harness the power of our community. I think we should jointly create a database of famous Christmas SA daggers. I think Dave's authority will be a guarantee that this information will not be misused.

First, let's answer 3 questions -

1. This information should be available in an open discussion on the forum, or it should be an exchange of information between former and current dagger owners, through a trusted member of the community. For example Dave.

2. The database should contain information only about Christmas daggers or a "Small A" too.

3. Let's try to trace the path of these daggers. After all, the actual confirmed origin is an additional guarantee of originality, and in some cases the opportunity to find out the history of receiving an item from veterans. Unfortunately, we do not know the name of the officer to whom the dagger was handed over. But we will be able to keep the names of the people who brought them as a trophy.


Buy Casberg sketches.
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Den,

This should be a separate topic.

Dave

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And it should be in the SA Dagger Forum if you want to include the early production Eickhorn with the prototype motto.

Dave

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I have seen two different versions of the single oval TM on HJ knives.

Here they are.

TM 1d.JPG (32.28 KB, 54 downloads)
TM 2a.JPG (32.48 KB, 54 downloads)
TM 1d marked.JPG (33.15 KB, 54 downloads)

Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
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