UBB.threads Forums General Militaria Japanese Militaria Forum tang mei help

Here is an army mount sword which I believe is a traditionalblade in as found condition. Need help with the mei on both sides. Thanks in advance, David

photo #2

photo#3

photo#4

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photo#11

This sword was at a pawn shop and no one had looked at the tang at least since WW2. The original peg was in the hole and crumbled out. Could hardly get the cover off. David

Ok, In doing some reading in several books, it would seem that any showa blade with an arsenal stamp would be a non traditional blade. I do not know if the mark shown on this blade represents one, or a personal mark of the smith. Master smiths would put their marks below the signiture, not above as here. So I don't know if this sword has the chance to be a hand forged blade or not. David

BOB C., KM, BILL BRANNOW, where are you? Help. David

quote:

Originally posted by violin:
BOB C., KM, BILL BRANNOW, where are you? Help. David

IT'S NEW YEARS! I AM SURE KM IS CELEBRATING IN JAPAN AS THIS IS THE BIGGEST HOLIDAY SEASON OF THE YEAR.
THE SWORD IS SIGNED ISHIHARA NAOTANE SAKU. THE REVERSE STAMP IS AN ARSENAL MARK AND THE RED LACQUER IS AN ASSEMBLY NUMBER. WITHOUT A HANDS ON EXAMINATION, I CANNOT TELL IF THIS IS A TRADITIONAL NIHONTO OR AN OIL TEMPERED BLADE WITHOUT A HANDS ON EXAMINATION. I CANNOT SEE ANY GRAIN IN THE STEEL AND WOULD TEND TO THINK THIS IS AN OIL TEMPER NON LAMINATED BLADE.

Thanks Bob. You mean you don't just sit around on your computer 24- seven? I had hoped that the smith's name might be one that was known for traditional blades. Unfortuately the sword is not in my hands because I told the shop owner to hold it while I did the research on it. He wants TOO much for the sword even if it is hand forged because it needs polish badly. I have some experience with swords but couldn't see past old fingerprint marks, scratches etc. If there was something special about it I might go ahead with the purchase. Perhaps KM will know the history of this smith. I wasn't sure if the small stamp was an arsenal mark or a TAN stamp which, I understand, usually ment a hand forged blade. Again I appreciate the help. I might get a chance to look at the sword and clean it with the traditional powder and see if things are clear enough to bother with more photos. David

DVID-
GOOD LUCK ON YUR VENTURE. SOME TIMES IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO EXPLAIN THE REALITY OF WAR TIME BLADES TO THE UNEDUCATED. BACK IN THE MID 80'S, WHEN HAND MADE WAR TIME BLADES WERE $100 AND DIFFICULT TO SELL, I LOOKED AT A DATED GENDAITO OF SHOWA 14. I EXPLAINED TO THE OWNER THAT IT WAS A WAR TIME BLADE WITH A CONTEMPORARY DATE. UNFORTUNATELY, HE HAD SHOWED IT TO A"PROFESSOR OF ASIAN HISTORY" AT NORTHWESTERN UNIVERSITY WHO PROCLAIMED THE BLADE TO BE 9TH CENTURY. YES, THERE WAS A SHOWA ERA IN THE 9TH CENTURY AND ANOTHER IN THE 14TH CENTURY. HOWEVER, TOTALLY DIFFERENT KANJI.
I COULD SEE THAT THERE WAS NO NEED TO DISCUSS THINGS FURTHER AS THE MAN THOUGHT HE HAD AN ANCIENT ANTIQUE THAT EVEN HAD A WHITE TANG WITHOUT ANY RUST.

Hello David,one other area of concern may be in photo#4.Although I am by no means pretending to be an authority,The photo indicates a bend or twist in the blade.It may be just the picture but,I have seen this type of distortion in other swords .Japanese and other countries.In my opinion they occur when a blade is "Chopped into a tree".The blade cuts deeply enough to "Bite" into the wood,but requires quite a bit of force to remove,hence the slight twisting in the blade.I understand this can be corrected by an expert but am not knowledgeable enough to elaborate.I am sure there is a Japanese term for this type of damage.Perhaps one of our more knowledgeable members can comment on this subject. Best wishes Geoff.

Geoff, you are right, from my photos it certainly looks like a blade irregularity. Don't know if this is photo disturbance or real. I will have to go back and look. Bob, I am going out on a limb here but I think that arsenal stemp is the stamp for SEKI and in the lists there was a smith with the name of NAOTANE. It gives his real name but of course I can't read it. Doesn't give the first name. These smiths produced good and bad blades but mostly showato according to the reference I looked up about Seki. David

Went back to the shop and cleaned on the blade a little and I believe this is an oil quinched blade. I could not see any folding in the metal of the hamen. Unless KM or someone else knows more about this smith, ie that he did make traditional blades, I have told the owner that it is showato and not worth much. David

There are some sword smiths who were approved by the government,and did make hand forged blades.Is it possible the military required or wanted these blades to be stamped with inspection marks like the German Waffenampts? Also.looking at the shiny section of the blade just in front of the blade collar "Habaki".Has the blade been cleaned with sandpaper or steel wool?This could be very well hiding clues on whether or not this might possibly be a hand forged blade.Sometimes a rough looking blade can be restored and be of great value.Other times although the piece can look much better it does not increase the value,other than cosmetically.I am not intending to criticize this piece ,I am only making some observations.Can anyone shed some light on whether or not assembly numbers were painted on hand forged blades made for the military? Thanks Geoff.

No cleaning on the blade. This blade looks like it was USED in the past ie like in the war. I had thought the hand painted part of the tang would be like kinsogan(sp?) mei but if it was a manufacturing number I have no experience with one, so Geoff your question is a good one. David

I will try to get better photos and post them so everyone can perhaps make up their own mind. I certainly have no strong feelings one way or the other so everyone can fire away at will. David

it has a typical showato oil quenched hamon
i have several gendiato blades with numbers painted on the nakago i guess sometimes the blades were sent to a depot for assembly

ANOTHER CLUE IS THE BLADE IS NOT DATED. GENDAITO WERE REQUIRED TO BE DATED WHILE FACTORY MADE BLADES WERE NOT.

Thanks Bob and nickn2. Again that is the conclusion I came to myself. David