UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons German Sword & Miniatures Forum Police or SS Sword Question

Would a Schupo officer who was an SS member be allowed to wear an SS sword instead of a police sword when in parade dress?

Thanks for any help!

Yes

Michigan Dawg, welcome to the forum!
I think "yes" but only when he has been AWARDED the Degen-of-theSS by H.H. Otherwise he had to carry the "normal" police officer�s degen (lateron officially called "SSPolizei-Degen" to complicate the case but it still WAS the "normal" police officer�s degen) I would assume . SSmembership alone did not authorize a police officer to wear the SSDegen.

Here we go again. I believe the subject of how an SS sword was acquired was a lengthy thread a few years ago.

A Police officer who was an SS member was the same as an SS officer who was not a police officer. I don't believe receiving the SS sword was such an event. I think the sword was either provided by the RFSS upon request or purchased by the SS officer when he did not receive it gratis. I cite as my source RdErl. de RFSSuChdDtPol i RMdI 5 August 1938, O-Kdo T(3)307 Nr. 24/38. This paragraph (2) states: "Die in Ziff.1 genannten Offiziere usw. die zugleich SS-Fuhrer sind, tragen den SS-Degen mit den Sigrunen,den sie solche SS Fuhrer, die den Degen nicht verleihen erhalten, haben sich diesen aus eigenen Mitteln zu beschaffen."
If one was lucky enough to suck up, you got a free sword, like all the Junkerschule graduates. Otherwise, you had to buy yourself one.

Joe-or Wotan-translation please. Joe-there are existing documents awarding the degen and signed by Himmler-How do you explain that? The SS service lists indicate award of the degen-how about that?

Gents,

How the Police Officer obtained his SS sword aside, Joe is quite correct in answering Michigan Dawg's question with, "Yes."

Yes, the Schupo Officer who was an SS member would be allowed to wear an SS sword insead of a police sword.

One picture is worth a thousand words. A period uniform plate by Kn�tel showing a Verwaltungspolizei Officer wearing an SS Officer Degen with an SS Officer Portepee. Notice the SS runes on his tunic indicating he is an SS member.

Alles in Ordnung!

George

Thanks so much for all the great discussion. I find myself very confused by the police organizations of the Third Reich so it's great for me to learn from so many knowledgeable individuals.

Thanks again!

Joe, sorry, I could not remember having read this Runderla� before but the certain thread was some time back and one of the longer ones .
Do you have a copy of this Runderla�?
Transl.: Those officers and so on mentioned in #1 who are SSleaders at the same time do carry the SSDegen with the runes, such leaders who did not get awarded the degen have to get the degen on their own means.
I still think that getting a degen was an event otherwise those awarding docs you know (same as the TKR awarding docs) signed by H.H. himself would not have been valued by them such high.
ORPO, imo this pic is very nice and interesting but does not proof this certain fact as who can say that it does not show an officer who GOT the degen awarded.

Wotan,

You are correct that the picture does not indicate how the Police Officer obtained his SS Degen. It only shows that it was possible for a Police Officer to wear an SS Degen while in Polizei uniform. That was Michigan Dawg's question.

George

I think the Runderlass that Wotan translated states the position I indicated earlier. The Degens came in two methods: by conferal/grant from HH or by self procurement.

This accounts for the existance of some conferral documents Houston, but also accounts for not a deluge of one for every SS officer.If he got the freebie from HH, his officer card was checked under Ehrendegen. If not, he could still buy his own and carry the Degen according to the Runderlass.This is not meant to dimish the importance and value of those swords conferred by HH along with the document. In my mind, that indicated the recipient was on a differnt level in the organization.

Wotan, did you want to see a scan of that actual Erlass that I quoted?

And, as Michigan Dawg had some confusion on the subject, I am sure he is even more confused after this repartee.

I must question the self-procurement idea. The degens were honor-presentation swords, similar to the Himmler dagger. There should be no question as to those received through presentation. Lots of documentation there. But there are so few of these swords, relatively speaking, I can't imagine their being available for private purchase, especially when you consider the number of Waffen-SS officers who could have bought them instead of the army-type saber. There are way fewer SS officer degens than police officer degens and many police officers were SS members. Apparently, a substantial number opted for the police degen or were not awarded the SS degen. I would not doubt that relatively few police officers may have converted their police degens to SS degens through a replacement grip, if they had been awarded the SS degen. Such would facilitate placing the SS sword in a place of honor and not being worn for everyday use. The so-called "SS officer candidate" degen may have been a private purchase item for SS officers not awarded the official degen, but there are so few of the "candidate" sword around, that also seems unlikely. Perhaps the saber was more popular and desirable after war broke out.

Grumpy, it is not a "self-procurement idea" or an opinion about it. I quoted a decree stating that police officers who were also SS officers could purchase their own SS Swords. That decree was issued under the authority of the Reichsfuhrer SS and Chief of the German Police. The decree also acknowledges that some swords were presented by Himmler. It doesn't question that some were presented by Himmler nor does it lessen the importance of those that have the documentation of presentation to which you refer. Nor does it mean that every police officer who didn't get one from HH went out an bought one on his own, which might explain why the fraternity isn't rolling in SS-Degens. It only means that those officers had the option to do so. Of course financial and personal circumstances would come into play. Could the officer afford it and although he joined for potential advancement, did he really want to show himself as one of them with the SS-Degen?

IMO-the ones they could buy are the so-called Candidate SS swords. I can't prove it but there are photos of Officers wearing them. We know from that they are not candidate swords. Why would they wear such a sword if they could have one with the runes in the grip?

I cannot fathom that any SS officer who was also a police officer could go out and buy an SS sword (with runes on the grip). I would like to read the exact order in English, if someone would please post it. The SS officer's sword is one of the rarest of SS edged weapons. Why would that be if several thousand (tens of thousands?) of police officers could go out and buy one? Certainly, other ranks in the police forces who were SS members could buy and wear SS "NCO" swords. Could something be wrong in the translation of the order? Was "degen" inserted or translated wrongly, as regards the private purchase? Could the order have been rescinded shortly after being issued? Also, are there any authentic SS officer swords with dedications or presentations on the blades (save the damascus gift swords, of course)? I don't think I have ever seen or heard of one. I believe this also indicates the standard SS officer sword was indeed an honor sword only that had to be presented. Why would the SS "dienstalterliste" make note of and keep track of sword presentations if anybody could go out and buy one? This would be like saying if you aren't awarded an honor ring, you can go buy your own.

"Those officers and so on mentioned in #1 who are SSleaders at the same time do carry the SSDegen with the runes, such leaders who did not get awarded the degen have to get the degen on their own means."

This is the translation provided by Wotan who speaks German. I never said every police officer went out an bought an SS sword. The Himmler inspired incorporation of police officers into the SS with membership started at about the time of the decree, but there wasn't a mass joining by police officers and soon the war introduced other factors, as the pistol replaced the sword as the required sidearm.

And I think we are placing a great deal of emphasis on the label Ehrendegen. The Ehrenwaffe was the official sidearm of the Political Leaders of the NSDAP. But it was just a matter of those PLs who were within certain rank parameters paying the RM 33,- to their retailer or to the Walther factory after they got their pistol license. No big deal. They got their Ehrenwaffe and it didn't come from Hitler. Hitler authorized them to buy the guns.

The box denoting receipt of the Ehendegen is carried on the SS officer card and in the DAL. The ZA badge is also carried on the SS officer card and any SS man could buy one for a few Reichsmarks. So what. And membership in the Lebendborn was also listed on the DAL. Wow, was that important. True, the TK ring was listed on the officer card as well as the DAL. But, if you satisfied rather broad established parameters for receiving the ring you could apply for it.

I guess it was a big deal because it came with a letter from the H-man. And so did the Ehrendegen. That's what made it important. The SS officers worked for recognition and reward from the boss.

I truly don't see this interpretation as inconsistent with the idea of the Ehrendegen. No do I see it necessarily requiring that there be thousands more SS degens out there, because that would not be historically accurate.

During the Third Reich the SS sword at best had only a very limited distribution with Waffen SS officers. With time that could possibly have changed some, but the issuance of the swords was terminated more or less as the Waffen SS began its rapid expansion into a larger scale combat force. And there were other pathways to becoming a Waffen SS officer besides the SS Junkerschulen.

In the directive cited the SS sword itself interestingly enough was referred to as �SS-Degen mit den Sigrunen�. I also thought that the timing was fairly interesting inasmuch as it was in 1938 that the Police Degens themselves were adopted by the German Police. Also the research of Joe Wotka - that revelation caused some noticeable ripples in the collecting world, casting some doubts on the accuracy of some earlier published references.

If my understanding is correct, what this latest revelation clearly indicates is that there was another class of potential recipients of the SS sword which had been created. Specifically those who had dual status in the SS and the German Police, who were not recipients of the SS sword from HH, and did not mind buying their own swords. I would imagine that there had to be some kind of paperwork to authorize the purchase of an SS sword. Even as those seeking replacements for swords presented by HH had to show authorization. FP

How about the swords with the Police insignia on the handle and a pommel with the SS Runes on it, where do they fall in all of this? JohnJ

Good question JohnJ,I think this was an option for all SS officers and they can be found on plain gripped officer degens as well as the police.

I believe that police officers were issued a police sword by their organization. So why should they go out and buy an SS officer sword with their own money?
I understand that Himmler only handed out 1700 SS honor swords and then ran out of budget for swords. The remaining officers must have received a document which allowed them to wear the honor sword with an 'invitation' by Himmler to buy their own. The socalled officer candidate sword was probably worn by field grade SS officers that were not members of the police.

The runic engravings on SS Police Officer swords was a cheap cosmetic solution for those police offier/SS officers who couldn't afford to buy there own SS Fuhrerdegen.

Police officers received their Police Fuhrerdegen. If they became SS officers, they would want to display their membership that they conciously sought by getting that SS officer sword. That is why they would go out and spend the money.

I don't know anything about 1700 Himmler honor swords. I still believe the "honor" designation is overblown by collectors. Sure those degens were accompanied by a printed letter. They sent out a letter with the Julleuchters too.

But the war and the elimination of sword wear drastically altered all plans of giving the swords or buying them.

Joe, there would have to be a reason to purposely list a sword recepient symbol next to an SS listing in the DL, don't you think ? I doubt that it meant that the office went down to the store and had the means to buy one.

JR brings up a good point. Why list it in the Dienftalterslifte (sp) if any officer could just go out and buy one.

JR and Rick, I did not write that the SS/Police officer could go out and buy an Ehrendegen. I wrote that if the Police/SS police officer did not receive his sword from the RFSS, then he could buy one by his own means. That was the option for those who did not receive the more desired Ehrendegen. I addressed the subject of the Ehrendegen being listed earlier in this thread.

"And I think we are placing a great deal of emphasis on the label Ehrendegen. The Ehrenwaffe was the official sidearm of the Political Leaders of the NSDAP. But it was just a matter of those PLs who were within certain rank parameters paying the RM 33,- to their retailer or to the Walther factory after they got their pistol license. No big deal. They got their Ehrenwaffe and it didn't come from Hitler. Hitler authorized them to buy the guns.

The box denoting receipt of the Ehendegen is carried on the SS officer card and in the DAL. The ZA badge is also carried on the SS officer card and any SS man could buy one for a few Reichsmarks. So what. And membership in the Lebendborn was also listed on the DAL. Wow, was that important. True, the TK ring was listed on the officer card as well as the DAL. But, if you satisfied rather broad established parameters for receiving the ring you could apply for it.

I guess it was a big deal because it came with a letter from the H-man. And so did the Ehrendegen. That's what made it important. The SS officers worked for recognition and reward from the boss."

I simply think collectors place too much importance on the German adjective "Ehren".

My misunderstanding, Joe. Are the requirements for the M36 Official SS Officer's degen as Tom Wittmann has written in his book, correct as far as you know then ? Thanks for the clarification. JR

Jr, first of all, my past research was almost exclusively confined to the Police. I did not delve into the SS. But continued research into the Police, swords,etc, naturally ecompassed some SS association. From this I drew information about the SS sword as it concerned police officers.

I do not know if the requirements for the M36 SS-Offizierdegen that Tom Wittmann wrote in his book (pp.342-345?) are correct. I worked with Tom on the SS-Polizeidegen section, but I don't recall adding anything about the swords. I offered some data on SS-portepees that I cam across.

Reading the published information, Tom apparently relied heavily on Mollo' excellent research some of which is in the paragraph on page 343.But the rest of the information presented in that paragraph and on page 345 is neither documented nor provided a time frame.

I would disagree with his statement "There are also many SS officers contained on the list (SS DAL 1938) who would apparently ....were affiliated with one of the Allegemeine Standarte which did not qualify for the award." I don't know where he got that information, but an examination of the 1942 SS DAL for example shows many officers of the Allegemeine SS with the Ehrendegen. I don't understand what Tom was refering to when he said affilitation with an Allegemeine Standarte would disquality an officer.

The first of his last two sentences on page 343
was derived from Mollo #3 p.70. I surmise the rest is Tom's own opinion. I have stated my belief about the DAL listing.

I will dig into this some more and see if I have anything in my archive concerning the SS degen that is not in my police material.

Joe, This might be the appropriate time to ask about something which has puzzled me for some time. My 1938 "Die blanken Waffen der Polizei� was printed before the introduction of the Police Degens. And regrettably I only have a partial English translation of the 1943 Police Manual.

The 1943 manual states that the SS-Officer�s Sword (SS-F�hrerdegen?) was worn by offiziere, Meister and Oberjunker of the Orpo, who were given the sword by the RF-SS. Presumably being those who had dual status in the SS and the German Police. Officers I can understand. Unfortunately my grasp of police ranks is not as good as my understanding of military ranks, but a Meister is I think a high ranking NCO close to that of a U.S. Master Sergeant. And an Oberjunker was a higher grade officer candidate.

How does that information fit into the scheme of things, or am I misinterpreting the translation? Regards, FP

As the war approached, there were three ranks of senior NCOs in the Ordnungspolizei:Meister, Obermeister and Inspektor. A new rank and insignia for the last two was created as a necessity of the war. They became Kriegsoffizieren-War Officers-similar to our Warrant Officers. The Meister remained the senior NCO and was accorded some of the trappings of a true officer rank. He was permitted to an officer style shako for one thing and an officer sword. The titles of Oberjunker and Junker were nco's of lower rank and younger age than the Meisters, and they were in officer training programms.

Besides the Ehrendegen and the TK Ring on DAL listings, one can also find the SA Sports badge and the DRL sports badge besides Lebensborn membership. So again I point out that not much importance should be placed on the appearance of that Degen in the DAL listings.

FP, the blade information in your 1943 police weapons manual was originally issued in June of 1939 and the text of that decree did specify that Offizieren, Inspektoren, Obermeister and Meister of the Ordnungspolizei, as well as Oberjunkers and medical and administrative officials in officer rank were to wear the SS-Officer Sword received from the RFSS. This shows how original decrees concerning the issue of the police swords were modified by successive ammendments brought about by outside circumstances. In this instance, the Inspektoren and Obermeister ranks were changed to respective Kriegsoffizieren ranks and were thus included under the general term Offizieren.

Many thanks for the information. I can see that there were an ongoing series of changes. And dual status higher ranking German Police NCO�s (and some others) who were recipients, when it came to the wearing of swords, were treated much the same as their counterparts in the German Army. And if dual status officers were not presented a sword they had to go out and buy one. Regards, FP

Can you please tell me for what ss officers were awarded with ss degens , did evetyone of them received one ?

Regulations are fine but they don't always reflect what really occurred or at least they sure don't seem to.It's a shame they don't but they really don't. Show me a period photo of an NCO wearing an SS Officer sword and I'll believe it. I just can't believe this happened. Also-show me a photo of a police NCO wearing an Officer sword-I bet you can't. Also-show me a photo of a police officer grade officer wearing a police bayonet-authorized by regulations?-sure! -but worn? --I really don't think so. The so called SS Officer candidate sword that we KNOW existed and was worn by Officers makes no sense at all if you buy the idea that the SS Officer sword could be had by all SS Officers. Why would they buy the plain looking "candidate" type????? Oh yeah! and there are NO regulations that we know of about the candidate type--but they did wear them. This is nuts-JMO . I still believe in the awarded ONLY SS Honor Degen for the above reasons and I think I am not the only one who does despite "regulations" translations and whatever. Pictures tell the tale.

Houston, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. But what is "nuts" about trying to explain the history of the SS swords within the context of "regulations". You are throwing out the baby with the bath-water because you can't find any pictures of what is described? No one in this thread has written that there was no awarded SS-Honor Degen. We have only suggested that there is evidence of other options.

On page 473 in Wittmann's book on SS blades is a photo of a Police NCO wearing a Polizei Fuhrer-Degen. The man is a Meister, senior NCO, authorized to wear officer cords and degen. I don't think it is unreasonable to believe that a Police Meister who was also in the SS might have been awarded an SS-Ehrendegen by the RFSS. You are dismissing the idea just because no one ccan find a picture of one carrying an SS-Fuhrerdegen? In Ingo Lohken's book on Prussian Police, there is a 1931 photo of Prussian Police officer at the Police School in Burg wearing a M30 Prussian police bayonet. Officers were permitted to wear them in the Prussian regulations, and the Nazi regulations mirrored the Prussian ones to a great extent.
There are pictures of SS officers carrying NCO swords. So what.

Besides the documentation, there is other evidence out there to suggest a second SS-Degen. Perhaps there is meaning in the phrase "SS-Degen
mit den Sigrunen" as Fred suggests. As you point out, there is no documentation for the so-called SS-Officer Candidate sword, but it exists in photos. The photo I provided in another thread is named. I know from the officer's file that he was never awarded the Ehrendegen. But he carried the SS officer style degen without runes. Perhaps this is an undescribed SS-Degen. The other documentation pictured in Wittmann's book suggests that there is another sword. One of the property cards shows receipt of an SS-Degen by an officer whose SS file shows no Ehrendegen awarded.

Joe you are certainly right about the photo in Wittmann's book-I had not noticed that one. SS Officers wearing NCO swords? I don't remember seeing that unless you are talking about Army type swords worn by NCOs and Officers. I also don't have the book on the police that you mentioned. Can we see the photo of the Police Officer wearing the police bayonet? Certainly not a common practice. The uniform regulations? I just can think of numerous pictorial examples contrary to those regulations. It would seem they were only a guide-not enforced to any extensive degree. The new book on Political Leaders shows the same thing-many wearing outmoded or mixtures of uniforms and insignia-upside down armbands--just whatever or whatever they felt like doing-and they were supposed to be examples to follow. Not politically correct at all.

A couple of observations: Period photographs are reasonably solid evidence that on specific occasions certain types of items were used or carried by individuals within that time frame. And judging from photographs of German Army officers carrying bayonets it became a common occurrence during WW I - presumably because swords were just too unwieldy for field operations. And while there are pictures of Degens in use with field service (gray) uniforms for some ceremonies, parades, funerals, etc. their use with the bulk of photographs seems to be with the more formal black uniforms in more formal settings.

While it has nothing to do with swords, HH approved of the use of ex-Czech weapons by SS personnel and there are a number of photographs showing them in use in training and in field operations. The Germans also used the factories at CZ to make arms for the Wehrmacht. I have yet to see a period photograph with the German modified SG24(t) in use - in spite of the fact that well used OEM specimens of same are not uncommon.

My point being that while a period photograph can show an item in use. The lack of photographs by itself is not compelling evidence that something is not true. FP

Houston,

Here is the photo from L�hken's book that Joe was speaking of. This is an Officer from the Police School Burg near Magdeburg in 1931. He is wearing the long clamshell Prussian Pol bayonet in a small frog with a D ring similar to the Forestry frog hangers.

I hope this is helpful.

George

Thank you George. I had just copied the photo from Lohken and you saved me the trouble of making two posts. You are right Houston, it is certainly not a common practice. Here is the photo of the SS officer, an Obersturmbannfuhrer in TV1/Oberbayern.
An older SS member, he never received the Ehrendegen according to his officer file. Notice the SS-Officer portepee on the hilt. And what did we call this sword?

I want to address your comments about regulations. You cite the new PL book showing mixed insignia on uniforms as evidence that regulations were often ignored. I don't recall seeing any punitive admonition in the 1939 Reichsorganization orders for the new insignia. There were no punishments cited in the Organization Book if all old insignia wasn't thrown out and replaced with new insignia. So, PLs either wore their old, added new or went all the way. But the regulations existed didn't they?

You write that you still believe in the awarded ONLY SS honor degen because regulations were not followed. Fine. I wrote that I believe that the
SS Degen when awarded by Himmler was an Ehrendegen. But there were other methods for officers to acquire SS degens and plans were in the works to offer them to more officers if the war had not intervened. It is published record. Why would it have been published if there was no intent to carry them out?

There are photos out there of SS officers with SS-Fuhrerdegens. Houston, unless those are named photos and you access the officer files, you cannot prove to me that the officer received it as an Ehrendegen. I have a photo from the Colonial Police School classes in Rome, about which I wrote in a Military Advisor article. There are several young low rank Police officers wearing runes on their tunics and sporting beautiful SS-Fuhrerdegens. All of them Ehrendegens? I doubt it.

Over the past few years there have been a number of quality threads on this forum dealing with the question of SS swords. Members have presented excellent photos and source information. But as has been pointed out, the pictures exist without documentation. It is frustrating to me as a researcher not to be able to document the existence of all of these swords.

Well-I guess part of the problem is that many important photos relative to these swords that exist have not really been published or are scattered around here and there. Obviously many were not shared with Wittmann for his book-and when- if ever- will we ever get another book like his? The other part of the problem is as you said Joe-there is no written record or explanation/regulation relative to many things that happened. I also feel the frustration-more and more as conflicting opinions and photos appear about really what we used to think were standard items.--makes one wonder if we really know anything at all. Very disturbing.

Gentlemen:
I copied this image from the "Technical Weapon Manual for the Regular Police - June 1941 Edition" Note how this degen is listed:
I,and I guess many collectors in this field, are facinated by the apparentely intertwining and perhaps complex relationship between the SS and the Police.