UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Army, Navy, and Luftwaffe Forum Early Undocumented Holler Army Crossguard

Ford to be clear do you believe this to be a WKC that is heavily reworked or a unique guard pattern?

Tom,
My thoughts exactly, to me thats a heavily hand enhanced 1st WKC with Holler traits.
I think Mr Wittmann started the prescedence by calling the scarce 2nd Holler a unique pattern. Really its a modified E-Pack.
JMO

Tom/Degens:
Your points are well taken on the WKC origin of these guards. These are unique to Holler in the sense that is has been modified with Holler characteristics. It is as much a Holler guard as the Weyersberg guard is unique to that company. And as you mention Degens, we all know the rarer Holler guard in Wittmann's book is a specially enhanced Pack 2nd. THe Henkels guard also comes to mind.

Ford,
Apologies if the above the comment was a little abrupt, I was just about to call it a night.
I tend to use a slightly blinkered view when it comes determining the crossguard maker and I have to agree with you to a degree that this pairing does have all the attributes of a new early Holler variation, albeit with a WKC base crossguard.
The shadow areas left on the crossguard from the original head position, pre-chiseling is clearly evident and is quite breathtaking when you consider the actual size of the eagles head.

What I find interesting is that Holler used an external supplier of base crossguards on more than one occassion even though they were obviously capable of producing in house. If I have it correct the order of production in lamens terms was:
WKC 1st (Holler modified)
HOLLER 1st
E-PACK 2nd (Holler modified)
HOLLER 3rd
E-PACK 2nd* (Holler modified)

The patina on that latest dagger is fantastic, very rarely are they left untouched to form such a thick coat. Here is another WKC 1st, no enhancing but equally as black.

Degens: No offense taken whatsoever. I did perhaps oversell the new variation routine a bit. However, the approach draws more readers and creates healthy debate, which is generally a good thing.

That is one black WKC alright. It contrasts nicely with the Popsicle handle. And what a wicked looking eye and beak?

I have noticed a great variation in the number of accent lines cut into the breasts of Intial Production WKC Eagles. To me, ones with fewer cross hatching lines (like yours) are much more attractive. Very nice indeed!

Degens: I believe the tiny eagle was the initial production model. Here is my take on the chronology of the Holler guards and why:

1)Holler First - Tiny Eagle (Janos, Doug and Tom)
-Double side screws on scabbard � associated with initial production on WKC and Eickhorn.
-Horizontal cross-graining on center segment of blade
- No acorns on scabbard band ends.

2)Holler 2nd - WKC 1st Model
-Single reversed placed scabbard screw � cost cutting measure � used throughout period
-Vertical cross-graining on center segment of blade
-No acorns on scabbard band ends - on earlier example
-Acorns on scabbard band ends � on later example
-Round eye on later example
-Crescent tool marks on head.
-Hogged out material around head to add depth to casting

3) Holler 3rd - Pack 2nd Model with hand enhanced head
-Vertical cross-graining on center segment of blade.
-Crescent tool mark on head and markings on neck.
-Round eye
-Extremely detailed pommel with acorns impressed into surfaces between leaves
-Extremely detailed scabbard bands with well formed acorns
-Tapered Tang only
-Standard Handle � so far

4)Holler 4th - Standard Holler Guard
-Tapered tang early
-Vertical cross-graining on center segment early
-Horizontal cross-graining on center segment late
-Shouldered tang late
-Generic scabbard late

5) Holler 5th - Pack 2nd with round eye � no other hand work on head
-Shouldered tang only
-Generally seen with generic scabbard

What a great thread having IMO two of the greatest minds in the heer collecting community contributing. I will say I think the WKC 1st is one of the least appealing if not thee least of the early guards I can see why Holler so extensively enhanced some of these and the early Holler one of the most appealing.

Tom,
Beautiful Holler, the wing enhancing is fantastic and a friend of mine owns an identical Holler showing exactly the same detail. Your photography is also very impressive, clarity of pictures is the only way to really appreciate the work that went into these early pieces.

Ford,
Your account of Holler production makes perfect logical sense when you consider all of the small details from each variation.
With most makers, on the early slant daggers, you would expect to see a purchased or external guard fitted first in production order before switching to an in house production. The fact that both are found with slant grips and tapered tangs only confuses the issue.

Looking at your assessment of the details, acorns, blade crossgrain and scabbard screws etc, it suddenly becomes quite apparent which came first......in this case the chicken .
I suggest to anybody who collects army daggers to take note of Fords thorough explanation of production order for this maker, you will not find a more accurate or detailed account in any book currently available.

p.s I own 2 of the later Pack 2nd Hollers, both with generic scabbards, punched eyes and shouldered tangs.

Ford, firstly, it is a great pleasure to see you return and start this topic. Your Holler is a wonderful example, the hand work is exquisite and a joy to see. It is very thrilling to see something such as this!

Your analysis is thorough, detailed and perfectly logical. I am working in Africa at the present and was unable to respond earlier but Degens has echoed my own thoughts. The chronology of production is confusing. That Holler would produce their own x guard and then abandon it so early in favour of a competitors product does not really seem to make sense. It would only seem logical if the initial fitting was also not produced in house and that they subsequently decided to change supplier or just got a better deal from WKC? Your dagger certainly shows they were prepared to go to extraordinary lengths to personalise their products.

Tom, I have to agree that I share your opinion that the WKC is the least alluring of all the early types, but in the above instance a silk purse was truly made of a sow`s ear. Your`s is a great Holler and as we might expect you photography is again outstanding. I have a similar example that I must compare with yours when I get home. It has the same very fine feathering to the wings. Both my Alcoso share this characteristic and if I had to pick a favourite it would be a tough call.

This is just the type of lively & enlightening discussion that makes collecting these wonderful early pieces so exciting.

Great stuff here,I agree with the info that is posted.
FORD, Love your "DARKER" Holler! Great character in that eagle head,and the patina is beautiful! Kevin.