UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons German Sword & Miniatures Forum Early SS Weyersberg sword

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Fram,

You do not need to start a new thread with each picture. Just hit "Reply" and your thread will contain everything together. This is very confusing.

George, Thank You!!!

There is I believe a PC way to collapse/link the threads. But I have a MAC, and don't want to repeat some of the errors I have committed in the past with postings.

That said, from the few images I took a good look at the sword seems to be OK.

Fred

Appears to be a Seilheimer hilt.
Hmmmmmm....

For Ricky, it is the first time I use posting photos, sorry.
For mrfabulous, I agree with you when you say it is a Seilheimer hilt.
But, is it really a problem? I know that a lot of makers changed and bought parts to each others.
Fram

I'm pretty sure the blade has been messed with . The brass tang top is one red flag and the lion head has been hand detailed before from what was the original tang. Very sorry to say it is modified or a (put together) in some way.
Regards: James

The tang in not brass but nickel. Is it a cap device shut with a piece of nickel?
Take a look at page 312 - 313 Exploring the dress daggers and swords of the SS from Mr Wittmann.
You can see the same Seilheimer sword hilt mounted on a weyersberg blade.
Fram

I have a LOT of respect for James�s (DAMAST) opinions as a very knowledgeable collector of TR (and earlier) blades. I took another look at all of the images and can see what he is talking about. And I am in agreement that not all of the detailing is in alignment. But I think there could possibly be a legitimate reason for that if the hilt is made from something other than brass.

I�m also not trying to be disagreeable with our new member Fram. But are you sure about the metal alloys used in making the hilt?

When I adjusted the color to try and compensate for the artificial lighting (using the brass wire as a guide). I see a brass insert (with brass in my experience being the usual metal of choice to fill in the hole). I'm also seem to be seeing what I think might be an iron (or zinc) hilt, if that is plating I'm seeing that has worn away on the high spots indicated by the red arrows?

I�m also wondering that if Tom (Swordfish) has chance to look at this thread. That he might venture an opinion on the insert, as sabers in general are one of his specialties. Regards to All, Fred

When they make a blade for a lion head sword it is not uncommon that they silver solder a brass piece to the last 1/2 to inch of the tang. The reason for this of course is so when they blend in the tang to the lions mane it is soft...As you can see from the pictures this lion head was detailed out once before were the brass tang comes through. I have seen Imperial swords with brass end tangs (not plugs) and of course 3rd Reich... On a true silver hilt lion head sword you will not have the brass color showing.. This would have been touched up plated silver. This is just what I'm seeing. Regards: James

James, I�m not at all disputing your expertise. And this comment is separate and apart from the sword under discussion. But with a TR era lion head saber I just pulled out to look at (with nothing special about it that I have owned for a very long time) the brass end cap was not detailed that much better than the sword posted. And the color did not match the rest of the hilt. And with the next sword I looked at being a �heavy duty� very high grade Imperial era saber. The steel tang extended through the hilt back piece, the end being detailed to match the surrounding brass.

As I think you know, my interests are centered more around swords intended for combat which is more where my interests are strongest. And two piece tang ends are not something I would expect to see because of their inherent weakness. With some of the best swords having even more robust tangs, not unlike those of the Samurai swords.

But with the more decorative blades, I have no doubt that they are just as you describe them. Best Regards Fred

I agree with Jim. This sword has been rehilted for some reason at some time. Not a good thing.

After a lot of experimentation with a new camera that I am not used to using. And a number of changes in lighting, here is the first sword I mentioned. Showing what IMO is a fairly decent, but in no way exceptional TR era Lion Head Army Officer�s saber.

In the images it shows that the tang button (or end piece), is a different color, and is not exactly flush with the rest of the back strap. Being tilted down slightly towards the face side of the hilt. With the opposite side slightly higher than the rest of the pommel. Also, the detailing is not perfectly done with all of the embellishments in the Lion�s mane lining up exactly. Instead showing starts and stops and misalignments with a sword hilt which has not been fooled around with. Versus less than exact period workmanship, with some examples being better executed, and others worse.

Also shown in grayscale to try and better illustrate the imperfections in the finishing process.

And inverted for the same purpose. FP

Interesting. Looks like the "hair" or "waves" were applied separately, as opposed to being applied to blend with the rest of the hilt after assembly.

Finally, is it a chance to be a period (pre 1945) Seilheimer sword with a replacement Weyersbergh etched SS motto blade?
Fram

Fram, Please forgive me for being brief, but I have some other obligations to attend to for this morning. And probably a good portion of the day as well. I understand your point. And was awaiting feedback from some of the others if they thought that the sword I posted had also been rehilted.

In the meantime, can you tell me if the hilt is magnetic (iron) or some other metal? As it does not look to me like brass (or nickel silver) in the images, and could help with dating it. Thank you, Fred

Hi Fred,
The hilt is non magnetic. Your read arrows indicate black patina also present on the entire hilt. The top of the tang is nickel (mailechort) like eraly SA or SS dagger parts. I am not sure of what kinf of metal the hilt is made. I think it is brass like the one pictured in th wittman SS boook page 312-313. There are a lot of similitude with this one exept the SS button more larger on that one. Many thanks for your attempt of clarification.
Fram

I would not buy a sword that looks like this. Rehilting/repairing a loose hilt or repairing wire is the ONLY explanation I can see. This type of hilting was executed first by "battering" the tang, filing it down flush and then blending it in with the hair lines. Poor workmanship would IMO not be a valid answer-as this would not result in the mismatch of lines shown.

Fred,The food is in the oven this Easter. Thank you for posting the pictures... I have seen many type of lion head peen jobs and detailing jobs.. Looking at Imperial swords and swords through the 3RD Reich I have seen detailing to where you can hardly tell there is a tang blended in... Yes, I have steel tangs blended in also ( you will see this more on older swords)on very rare occasions you will see (Imperial swords) with a screw top lion heads very rare. You have to look at these closely.This is on (dress swords only) Now back to the sword that started the post... He mentioned it looked like a nickel color etc.... Not sure what to say there.. This good be a steel tang peen ... Needs to check with a magnet.. If that is the case this is another red flag.. Fred, it is true the pictures you posted the peen and detail job seem little Frankenstein but yours has a brass tip to the tang and to be honest if your sword is the garden verity way change the blade...Fred if you think the sword is original that's fine..But I sure do not like the tang job and feel it is suspect .. Lets call it a opinion... Regards: James

That the tang �button� is nickel silver and not brass gives me a little more work to do to guesstimate the color values. And If the hilt of the sword that started this thread is not magnetic. I�m going to have to go back and really look at the images agin.

I�m also assuming that at least some of comments might have been directed towards the TR era sword I posted, and will address them now.

This is the problem: Starting with the Imperial era sword, if you are going to gold plate or fire gilt the hilt you have to do all of the hand detailing first. Then apply the gold. And if you accidentally mess up the gold on the pommel while detailing the tang. With the tang already peened over and holding the blade in place firmly. You have a problem. You can�t gold plate it again without taking it all apart - and reassembling it with the now shorter tang.

Here we see the Imperial era saber with the tang solidly peened over so the blade will not fall out. You can see where it covers a fairly large area and overhangs part of the adjacent pommel. I think that you can also see where they made some kind of effort to not cut into gold/brass even if things were not quite perfectly aligned. The work might not live up to the expectations of some - but it is what it is.

With the TR era saber I posted the only thing that we can see holding it together is the tang button. Which we can see in this image has a normal shaped lion head (IMO), along with a slightly domed shape for the peened over tang.

Also with a very slight overhang on one side (of give or take .004 to .006 of an inch) not that is is necessarily a good thing or a desired end result. The question here being how much effort do you want to take with a higher copper content work hardened piece of metal to correct the problem to get it perfectly flush? Something else that I think can be seen in the images are some of the knocks and dings on a larger portion of the pommel area.

The various embellishments did not come out of a punch press. Here are a pair of images showing the talents/abilities of whomever detailed this particular hilt. Both the front and the top . To me it looks like the work of the same individual - but then again I�m not an artist. I also tried to take a couple of really good macro shots of the insides of the detailing to show the similarities - but it seems that I�m also not a very good photographer either. (Although I also suspect it�s beyond the capabilities of the camera I used.) If desired, I have another shot or two showing to better advantage the dents and dings present on the pommel area that are typical of a sword that might be decent enough. But is not in mint condition.

Now I�m going to have my own Easter dinner with family and friends. Best Regards to All, Fred

It shouldn't be overlooked that the blade of the sword fram has presented has a custom etch on it. This may or may not lend meaning to the maker/hilt question and possibly to the appearance of the tang end. Another opinion, but I think the sword is okay.

I�ve got some other things to do so, so this will only touch on a few things. Looking at the sword that started the discussion from a slightly different perspective, I�m assuming that the hilt is probably zinc. A later period material, used by just about everybody as a base metal for dress bayonets, daggers, and sword components.

I�m still looking at and working with the images, but here is a �sneak preview�.

A fighting sword, the first image of it that I posted might not have shown to its best advantage how large the peened steel tang �button� actually was in relation to the rest of the hilt. With an additional image above showing the overall look of the sword.

Everybody has their own standards as to what is considered good workmanship. There are daggers (and some swords) that I would not touch with a 20 foot pole, that others seem to love and consider quite acceptable as period items.

That they might disagree with me as regards this item or that is fine with me. Because in the process I can (and have) learned things that have helped my collecting immensely. Sometimes it�s how to better detect fakes. Other times it might be to correct bad information that I might have picked up somewhere.

This is one of the swords I got into very easy, and put away and more or less forgot about a long time ago. I think that I liked it because it had a simplified �art deco� look (to me) that was fairly common with a lot of TR art in general. With this image taken from a head on perspective. Does it look like somebody cut it down to rehilt it for some unknown reason? Not to me - but I certainly respect the right of others to disagree. FP

Fred,
What you are seeing grey is not zinc but for sure dark grey patina. This patina is over the silver plating. Actually, the hilt retains 100% of the silver plating.
Fram

Fram,
Is it possible for you at some point to take some closeup pictures in natural sunlight? I (like Grumpy) personally am a big fan of in-hand inspections. But understand that it�s not really feasible most of the time, with good pictures being the next best thing.

The problem being that silver itself does not really oxidize. But in the atmosphere (like silver coins or silverware), does form a layer of silver sulfide. Which eventually ends up black after going through phases that are known as �toning�. Right now with the level of detail present in the images. And the lighting issues, I don�t at the moment know how to take it further without establishing a baseline.
Best Regards, Fred

From all of this discussion I was prompted to go back to surviving archives from 2 or 3 computers ago. From one that took place 7 or more (?) years ago, here is a sword that I am reasonably comfortable with as being a period example. It�s a P. Weyersberg with the large SS roundel on the langet, and is silver plated over brass.

As I said earlier, everybody has their own standards on what they consider acceptable for period workmanship (depending on the artifact). This is the image that I have of the tang button, which is abstracted from a larger image that was the central focus. While it�s the best that I have found at the moment, unfortunately it�s not head on, and not in sharp focus. But what I am seeing in the image is a different tang button alloy (than the hilt). A button that has a fairly high �dome� effect. And what looks like some parts of the detailing blending in reasonably well, while others do not.

With the saber under discussion in the images I have seen no indication (that I have been able to identify) for the base metal being brass. Usually I can make an adjustment here or there to make sense of what I am seeing. But with the saber that started the discussion many of the images are just not sharp enough. With lighting that is giving me problems. And an unknown that may be a possible variant. That may or may not be later. At this moment in time I�m looking at all of the options.

PS to James and Houston: My apologies, if I had remembered this earlier it might have eliminated some of the excess discussion. Fred

Many thanks.
Fram