#12966
12/12/2009 09:03 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1
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OP
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1 |
Hey All, I was wondering if I could get opinions on 2nd luft by Pack. Is this maker mark early or later one. Thanks Stingray
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#12967
12/12/2009 09:04 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1
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OP
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1 |
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#12968
12/12/2009 09:05 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1
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OP
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1 |
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#12969
12/12/2009 09:05 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1
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OP
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1 |
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#12970
12/12/2009 09:06 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1
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OP
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1 |
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#12971
12/12/2009 09:06 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1
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OP
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1 |
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#12972
12/12/2009 09:07 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1
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OP
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1 |
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#12973
12/12/2009 11:41 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1
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OP
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1 |
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#12974
12/13/2009 03:45 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1
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OP
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1 |
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#12975
12/13/2009 11:10 AM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 5,024 Likes: 31
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 5,024 Likes: 31 |
IMO and due to my experiences this is an early mm. The later ones are the "horseshoe only" and the larger "horseshoe with Siegfried above" mms. Regards,
wotan, gd.c-b#105
"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
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#12976
12/13/2009 02:33 PM
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,290
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,290 |
Well this is a strange one the scabbard is not a Pack � How many screws does the scabbard have? The pommel does not have the Pack dots tapped around the circle? This dagger just does not exhibit the traits that I would like to see on an early Pack I would also like to see that MM little further down the blade would not be for my collection
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#12977
12/13/2009 04:41 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1
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OP
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1 |
Hi Scabbard is not a Pack? Why,it have two screw,thats wrong? Here is more pictures
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#12978
12/13/2009 04:41 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1
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OP
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1 |
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#12979
12/13/2009 04:42 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1
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OP
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1 |
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#12980
12/13/2009 04:42 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1
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OP
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1 |
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#12981
12/13/2009 06:31 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1
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OP
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1 |
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#12982
12/13/2009 08:42 PM
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 147
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 147 |
Those funky scabbard rings are cropping up so often I'm beginning to think they're real. Johnson used to sell that style of scabbard ring as 'left over stock', one type in alloy and the other in solid nickle, the alloy ones had a more rounded profile and the nickle ones a more square one like the one's on this dagger shown here, like I said they are appearing so often now that I couldn't really say whether they were period or not
Guns Mr Nolan, I see no Guns!
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#12983
12/13/2009 11:24 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 826
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 826 |
I noticed for comparisson in Wittmanns army book on pages, 52 and 53 this early pack logo is either low or high up on the blade. Now I did'nt notice any in the luftwaffe book.
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#12984
12/14/2009 02:39 AM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,263 Likes: 1
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,263 Likes: 1 |
The Pack TM is an early variant. I have two very early slant grip Pack army daggers with the same logo. I really don't like the scabbard... Maybe it's just the photo.
Janos
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#12985
12/14/2009 03:00 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1
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OP
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1 |
Thanks guys for opinions. Janos,where is the problem on scabbard? Thanks Stingray
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#12986
12/14/2009 03:01 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1
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OP
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1 |
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#12987
12/14/2009 03:01 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1
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OP
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1 |
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#12988
12/14/2009 03:02 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1
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OP
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1 |
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#12989
12/14/2009 03:02 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1
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OP
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1 |
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#12990
12/14/2009 04:36 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 826
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 826 |
Looks to me to be an early silver plated type scabbard.
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#12991
12/14/2009 03:55 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,263 Likes: 1
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,263 Likes: 1 |
Stingray, The additional photos are much better. No worries. On Picture 1 the scabbard looks like a typical repro. But as I mentioned earlier: "Maybe it's just the photo."
Janos
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#12992
12/14/2009 04:04 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,263 Likes: 1
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,263 Likes: 1 |
Stingray, TMs of my early Pack armies. Janos
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#12993
12/14/2009 08:21 PM
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 147
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 147 |
Here is why I never liked these scabbard rings, compare with this Chinese Repro, they are similar to WKC but the give away is the differing angle between the centre vein of the oak leaf and the separating band of each section. Still just MO, but I would never buy a dagger with these bands on the scabbard.
Guns Mr Nolan, I see no Guns!
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#12994
12/14/2009 09:54 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 826
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 826 |
Nolan, Are you talking about the rings or the bands ?
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#12995
12/14/2009 11:23 PM
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 147
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 147 |
The bands Ed, I've never liked them, others have made the same point several times on here, compare them with the Chinese repro, and actually the rings are quite large as well.
Guns Mr Nolan, I see no Guns!
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#12996
12/14/2009 11:36 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1
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OP
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1 |
Chinese repro?
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#12997
12/14/2009 11:47 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,881
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,881 |
I must admit I am not too keen on that scabbard either, can we see close ups of the holes for the scabbard rings, the scabbard ball and throat please. Look at the scabbard bands on this repro > http://www.wardaggers.com/Rogu...lery_Luft_Dagger.htm
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#12998
12/15/2009 01:00 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1
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OP
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1 |
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#12999
12/15/2009 01:00 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1
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OP
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1 |
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#13000
12/15/2009 01:00 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1
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OP
Joined: Nov 2007
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#13001
12/15/2009 01:00 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1
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OP
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1 |
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#13002
12/15/2009 01:01 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,656 Likes: 1
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OP
Joined: Nov 2007
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#13003
12/15/2009 02:00 AM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,881
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,881 |
Not what I was expecting to see!. Ed may well be right and it may be perfectly ok. I hope you get more opinions as I am interested to see what others think. The dagger definately appears to be early with that TM.
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#13004
12/15/2009 04:59 AM
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,290
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,290 |
To clarify my stand on the dagger it just does not have what I would expect to see on a early Pack first the scabbard is not a Pack note the bands and also the screws are not the norm on any pack either army or 2nd luft you almost always see the dome head screws. The pommel does not exhibit any hand work that you would expect to see on an early Pack not to mention the absence of the little dots taped into the circle. I am not saying it�s a repo but at best a put together IMO and yes I have never liked those bands myself but you know what they say opinions are like. Compare this to the Pack in my collection with the transitional mark and you will see a significant quality difference with mine being made after this one just does not add up IMO.
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#13005
12/15/2009 12:34 PM
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 147
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 147 |
Hi Tom, I know full well that you share your opinions of those bands with me, I think now have good close ups of the Chinese deal should say something, they always seem to appear on questionable items and are not seen in Wittmans book. There is always the possibility of course that the Chinese copied genuine items but I wouldn't put my money on that option, more likely is that if everything else was proved to be period that the bands were a later replacement, as I said I once purchased a set from Tom Johnson, but I never liked them, they were too new.
Guns Mr Nolan, I see no Guns!
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