UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories The Honor Ring Forum HH ring - today discovered

So, here are pics of my colleague today's find at well known field in West Bohemia. Name of the owner was Kropp.
stubaf. August Kropp
25.12.1904- Saarbrucken
nr. SS: 277 287
Hoherer und Polizeifuhrer Ukraine
Hoherer und Polizeifuhrer B.u.M

Could anybody provide me more info please? Any help appreciated...

Thanks,
Jan

Second

Third

Fourth...

And the last...
Thanks for watching, any comments and oppinions welcome.

Jan

My "The Key" shows SS-Nr.277 287 is listed in DAL Dec.1937 page 303, Dec.1938 page 252, July 1944 page 107 and Oct.1944 page 53...

wow,,,what luck,,,the only things i find in fields are trash and an ID card belonging to someone named James Hoffa,,

Looks like a lottery win day for you people.
I hope the scar near the left eye was not made by your mate in his attemt to dig out the item.

ID LIKE TO SEE THE REST OF THE DATE AND NAME.

sorry for abrupt first post, i sent in capitals and pressed send by accident, anyway, what i meant to say was im a little concerned of the engraving, to small to me, and rim to thick, id like to see the rest of the interior please, im a sceptic,and im not over keen on it sorry

something about the skull does not look right. More pictures of engraving would help.

Please post clear, closeup pics of the rest of the INSIDE INSCRIPTION (name and date)and the other outside views that are missing. We're dealing with a half deck of cards here.

There are a few things that really bother me about the ring. 1. The inside of the top edge of the ring seems to be beveled, but should be rounded.2. The surface of the ring and skull seem to have sand casting bumps.3. There is virtually no evidence of the blackening compound in the grooves of the band.4. Parts of the design, especially the border, don't seem consistent with other originals. Now I know there are transitional rings and different skulls, but I believe there only 2 styles of bands, this being the 2nd style. Normal die flaws seem absent. Also, I believe that by 1940, the Himmler signature had the much finer, thinner engraving. This particular engraving looks too thich, and not tall enough. MORE PICS!!!! Let's see the name and date.

caution with dug pieces!

Also, how about a 'birds eye view', a view directly from the top..
The seam, and yes more of the engraving...

At this moment I do not have more pics, will ask for better ones. Not sure if he agrees with posting pics of name....

Jan, you already have revealed the name in your first posting so why no photographs from the interior .
Regards,

Wotan, my friend is afraid of faking the exact style of name.... maybe a bit paranoid, but when you live in CZ or near Poland....

the exact style of the engraving has already been revealed in the Himmler name engraving and it would be problematic for a master hand engraved to extrapolate the correct style for the recipient's name,that being said,let's have a look at the rest of the ring..

my moneys on either a zero in the date ,or a first name initial of the recipient. first thing that raised my suspision was the mud from the dig on the ring, a typical fakers provenance. still say its a baddie.

Oh Phil, you are such a cynic.
Seiler

If Jan says the ring was found by his friend himeslf, how can it be fake?
Are the cheaters filling the battlefields with fakes also?

phatt, i dont even trust my mother. seiler, love you seriously though, im right

I agree that the Himmler signature looks very good compared to almost all fakes I've seen. Still, it's not typical of the 1940's style Himmler engraving, and appears too small. The thicker, beveled engraving you see here looks more like the 1934 style. The notion that seeing the recipient's name, which is ALREADY known, is nonsense, because a faker can see many different examples of original rings on this forum and WA forum. My original ring has a capital "K" also. I't would be nice to see if it's the same style. What's the sense of posting something, and then hiding part of it? MORE PICS!!!!!

Yeah.We are ALL crying out for pics clear and close all around the inside please.
Seiler

quote:

Originally posted by Josias:
I agree that the Himmler signature looks very good compared to almost all fakes I've seen. Still, it's not typical of the 1940's style Himmler engraving, and appears too small. The thicker, beveled engraving you see here looks more like the 1934 style. The notion that seeing the recipient's name, which is ALREADY known, is nonsense, because a faker can see many different examples of original rings on this forum and WA forum. My original ring has a capital "K" also. I't would be nice to see if it's the same style. What's the sense of posting something, and then hiding part of it? MORE PICS!!!!!

Is this a second time a "friend" of yours have found a Tote ring? And I recall that you showed another "ground-found" tote ring also leaving out the name of the owner.
I recall there were questions about that ring too. Forum members asking for more photos but your "friend" didn't want to show. So was it perhaps it had the same name as this ring? Same friend perhaps found 2 tote rings!? Our two different "friends" who both don't want to show the owners name?

Regards,
-serge-

Look closely at the back of the ring with the Ty-Rune. At 3 o'clock and at 6 o'clock, notice how the band that goes around both edges of the ring is virtually non-existent, due to the fact that the inside of the ring is severely beveled. Also notice how the top of the leaves between the Swastika and the Sig-Rune are far away from the top border, especially the leaf that touches the top of the Sig-Rune triangle. Even on mint rings, the leaves either touch the border, or come very close. The same is true of the Runic insignia borders. Original example shown:

quote:

Originally posted by phil-brown:
my moneys on either a zero in the date ,or a first name initial of the recipient. first thing that raised my suspision was the mud from the dig on the ring, a typical fakers provenance. still say its a baddie.

Phill, there is no zero in a date of first name initial, I will post nex pics in few minutes.
Concerning the mud, I am sure after 65 years we will look the same

Jan

Example to show how the edge band should look. It also shows the type of signature I've seen on 1940 and even 1939 rings. The fact that the leaves and rune borders don't come close enough to the edge band and the fact that the inside of edge band is beveled bother me more than the signature, though.

quote:

Originally posted by Phatt:
If Jan says the ring was found by his friend himeslf, how can it be fake?
Are the cheaters filling the battlefields with fakes also?

Phatt, good point, but you cannot trust anybody and anything here concerning such finds (sure you know that).
Funny thing - some people really fill in well know places with better or poor fakes! I have seen some of them....

Jan

Better view of edge band:

quote:

Originally posted by Serge (aka Wagner):

quote:

Originally posted by Josias:
I agree that the Himmler signature looks very good compared to almost all fakes I've seen. Still, it's not typical of the 1940's style Himmler engraving, and appears too small. The thicker, beveled engraving you see here looks more like the 1934 style. The notion that seeing the recipient's name, which is ALREADY known, is nonsense, because a faker can see many different examples of original rings on this forum and WA forum. My original ring has a capital "K" also. I't would be nice to see if it's the same style. What's the sense of posting something, and then hiding part of it? MORE PICS!!!!!

Is this a second time a "friend" of yours have found a Tote ring? And I recall that you showed another "ground-found" tote ring also leaving out the name of the owner.
I recall there were questions about that ring too. Forum members asking for more photos but your "friend" didn't want to show. So was it perhaps it had the same name as this ring? Same friend perhaps found 2 tote rings!? Our two different "friends" who both don't want to show the owners name?

Regards,
-serge-

Serge, this is really second ring he found. First one was discussed here: http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/74097573/m...050048054#2050048054
He found it at the same field!
Ok, I am gonna resize other pics, and post them.

Jan

quote:

Originally posted by Jan CZ:

quote:

Originally posted by phil-brown:
my moneys on either a zero in the date ,or a first name initial of the recipient. first thing that raised my suspision was the mud from the dig on the ring, a typical fakers provenance. still say its a baddie.

Phill, there is no zero in a date of first name initial, I will post nex pics in few minutes.
Concerning the mud, I am sure after 65 years we will look the same

Jan

AGREED, BUT THIS AINT 65,,,,,,and neither am i

OK,here is missing side view....

Here is top view...

Back of the skull...

The date...
No zero Phill, I will send you my account number

Hey - I have a good idea. How about the whole name and date?

S.Lb.

quote:

Originally posted by Josias:
Hey - I have a good idea. How about the whole name and date?

OK, I will let him cut it, make it flat again and picture it

Thanks!! That's much better. Here's a "K" and a date to compare:

Different angle-

Date-

quote:

Originally posted by Josias:
Thanks!! That's much better. Here's a "K" and a date to compare:

Oh, Josias, I am not that experienced but why the beginning of the date looks so small to me?

And last pic - full name...
BTW, could anybody give some info on the wearer himself please?

Jan

Generally, the numbers were taller than the small case letters, and shorter than the tall ones. The numbers on my ring are smaller than usual, but I judge more on the style and crispness of the engraving. Don Boyle once told me that he attributes the smaller dated rings to those engraved by Otto Gahr himself. Whether this is theory or fact, I can't say. The Koehl ring came from Mr. Boyle originally.

One last note. The vertical scratches that are prevalent on the inside, behind the skull and elsewhere, are not normal, unless someone tried to sand the inside of the ring. These appear to be file marks made when the wax model was carved. The wax blanks come with a small hole that has to be enlarged with a file. Then it's sanded, and eventually smoothed out by using a rough cloth. This is painstaking, and often one becomes impatient. This is often the result. My overall assessment of this ring is that it's very likely a reproduction. This is in no way meant to be disparaging to the poster. Any analysis has to be critical to have value. I would be interested to hear other evaluations, even if they differ.

quote:

Originally posted by Josias:
One last note. The vertical scratches that are prevalent on the inside, behind the skull and elsewhere, are not normal, unless someone tried to sand the inside of the ring. These appear to be file marks made when the wax model was carved. The wax blanks come with a small hole that has to be enlarged with a file. Then it's sanded, and eventually smoothed out by using a rough cloth. This is painstaking, and often one becomes impatient. This is often the result. My overall assessment of this ring is that it's very likely a reproduction. This is in no way meant to be disparaging to the poster. Any analysis has to be critical to have value. I would be interested to hear other evaluations, even if they differ.

Josias, your oppinion was expressed fairly and straight, I appreciate it.

Jan

Thanks!!

Counterfeiters are way past putting 0s in the date..

Jan, I know you know/understand diggers and don't always trust them 100%.. I think you are smart to question this ring..
Dug rings are a problem,,but they should still adhere to the basic criteria for authenticity.. I'm not really liking this ring from these photos..

I do not want to offer an opinion concerning this certain ring here in question as my knowledge is not so much specialized. But in my opinion it is highly dangerous to compare the engraving and especially parts of the engraving with ONE other kind. First GAHR did empoy several engravers (it is said at least 4) and the hand engraving, which it is, for sure does differ from person to person. Second it�s for sure a difference if a ring was engraved 1940 or 1944 even by the same person. One special letter (eg. as the "K" compared here) might even vary from one ring to the next one even by the same engraver.
Against insistent general erroneous "knowledge" these rings were not engraved in "open" state (as a band) but in closed state (as finished and soldered ring). So this also needed skillful work which might also differ from the length of each name in connex of the angel for engraving.
This all said I again will point out again that I cannot make a statement about the ring here in question.
Regards,

Wotan - Point well taken about the inscription. However, If other problems weren't apparent with this ring, the inside inscription wouldn't bother me nearly as much. EVERY 2nd style ring I've ever seen has leaves that either touch the borders, or are very close. This is also true of the frames that hold the runics. The border is always well defined, but on the ring in question is quite irregular. There's not a hint of the blackening compound usually found in the recesses of the leaves. It's possible it disappeared from being in the ground, but I would expect the opposite to be true. These traits are constant from ring to ring. No one can explain the flat bevel on the inside edge of the ring. Then there's the vertical scratches that suggest an improper finishing method. These things add up, and you then have to make excuses for everything. The engraving then, is just the icing on the cake. Taking all these other things into account lead me to believe that the thicker than normal inscription engraving is the result of an engraver who was unable to duplicate the fineness of the later style engraving.

Thanks for all your comments and oppinions folks, there is still so much to learn.

Jan