UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories Police Uniforms Forum FSP / FW / WSF - Questions

OK, so maybe it is just my police background, but for the life of me I have the hardest time trying to come to terms with Feuerwehr Insignia. Must be that pseudo sibling rivelry between PD/FD. A little help here would be greatly appreciated. I have gone through numerous old threads, both here and abroad, and have sorted out the following:

Feuerschutzpolizei: Provided police authority at fire scene and supplemented local FD.

Insignia: Carmine on Green backing.

Feuerwehr: Local Firefighting command

Insignia: Carmine on Black backing. Carmine on Green backing.

Werkfeuerwehr: Factory Fire Command

Insignia: Carmine on Black backing.

OK, My question,... am I close ? I mention the insignia above with the understanding I am speaking of the EM/NCO Patches. I know there was a silver on green and a silver on black for the superior officers of the FSP / FW.

I know 1st style insignia had the city / district names on them. Subsequently these were ordered to be removed. Finally were all three supposed to wear the police green based patches with carmine embrodiery ? At this point I'm just trying to sort out the color progression at this point. I know there were various backing materials for coveralls, jackets, etc..

I did a quick graphic chart to simplify it. Let me know if I am close to the mark of if I am off, how bad.

Thanks for the help,
Andrew

Yep Andrew... everybody loves a Fireman...

It is confusing but I think you have got the right idea with your patch chart. Use your cop background to think of the evolution of the German fire fighting service in a similar manner as in the US. During the Imperial and Weimar Republic times there was the Feuerwehr. They had both professional (full time paid service) fire services and volunteer (part time paid or unpaid) services. The professional Berufsfeuerwehr generally evolved into the Feuerl�schpolizei and then the Feuerschutzpolizei. These folks were supposed to all wear the green police style uniforms but did not always wear the carmine on green eagle.

The part time Feuerwehr continued much as it had but typically retained the old Prussian blue uniforms and had different rank insignia but used the same older sleeve eagle of carmine on blue/black. Town names early and no names later on typically.

The Factory Protection fire service was a private company Werkfeuerwehr aligned with their air raid protection and plant security folks. These uniforms were typically the old Prussian blue style as well but insignia was slightly different and supposed to be standardized mid-war. They wore the patch you show and they could also wear cuffbands.

I think only the Feuerschutzpolizei wore carmine on green sleeve eagles.

I hope this helps.

Dear George,

I would only add that the feuerwehr did wear a carmine on green eagle on overalls and other fatigues. Here is one made for that purpose.

They were all supposed to switch to green uniforms towards the end of the war, but never did, so carmine on green eagles with carmine swastikas were indeed produced for them.

I have always felt that the carmine on green with BLACK swastika was used by the armed FSchPo.

Regards,
W.Unland

Bill,

I don't disagree with anything you have said.

We all know the reluctance of long serving cops and firemen to give up old style issue stuff. I know I held onto, and continued to wear, my old "Policeman" badge long after they had been changed to the more politically correct "Police Officer" title. I knew females who did the same with their "Policewoman" badges. I never turned it in because we were permitted to keep them but we were not supposed to wear them.

For that reason alone (human contrary-ness) it is difficult to make hard a fast rule about these eagles in evolving services like the Feuerwehr - Feuerl�schpolizei - Feuerschutzpolizei, IMHO.

I do think that Andrew is on the right track though, don't you?

George

George / Bill

Thanks for the input. I think those of us who have worn a uniform understand a little about what the regs say, and what is actually worn. Old habits are sometimes a little hard to break and I think sometimes we are a lot more "nostaligic" then administrators are when they revamp things.

Anyway, I was aware of the coverall patch. Just was trying to outline the basic transition.

It was interesting to note that while the Werkschutzfeuerwehr utilized the police eagle motif on their insignia, the Werkschutz did not. Was the WFW association simply through their fire related duties. I have seen mention of them in the OrPo heirarchy, but nothing on the Werkschutz.

Andrew

Organizationally, the Fire fighting forces in 1932 existed in the professional and volunteer groups as George wrote, but there were no official laws to control them. With their takeover of power, the first thing the Nazis was to pass a law creating the Feuerloschpolizei and give them new uniforms. The law gave official status (a use of the word polizei that did not necessarily mean the uniformed Police) to the volunteer and professional fire fighting forces. The uniforms were identical except for the collar patches: black for professional (Berufs.) and carmine for volunteer (pink).

Four years later, all the various fire fighting forces in the Reich were consolidated with a national law passed titled Feuerloschpolizei. The Feuerloschpolizei law created the Feuerschutzpolizei (from the Berufsfeuerwehren)which were to provide the sole fire fighting services in some 62 designated major cities in the Reich. Andrew, the FSchupo did not provide police authority like the Schupo nor did they supplement any other Feuerwehr forces. They were the pros from Dover and the black of the Berufsfeuerwehren was to be used in their new uniforms.The Feuerschutzapolizei was considered another branch of the Orpo.

The other branch of the Feuerloschpolizei was the Feuerwehren, which consisted of the Freiwillige Feuerwehren, Werkfeuerwehren and the Pflichtfeuerwehren. Over the next few months the further enanctments put the new organization into effect.The Feuerwehren were considered Hilfspolzei.

The new clothing orders of the Feuerschutzpolizei described the arm eagle as having a black swastika. Units of the Feuerschutzpolizei from some areas were organized into regimental formation to accompany the troops into occupied territories to provide fire fighting services. They were armed.

The complete clothing orders are quite complex. One mentions that the collar insignia of the FSchp and the Freiw.Feuerwehr are identical except the Freiw.Feuerwehr did not have aluminum piping. The Freiw. Feuerwehr eagles are described as having carmine swastikas.

The Feuerloschpolizei law was created in conjuction with the Reichs Luft Ministry.
This information has been derived from a 1941 Taschenkalendar fur die Feuerschutzpolizei und Feuerwehren.I did some editing to add some info and correct spelling. But I might have missed some.

Joe

Thanks for the info. I have been collecting German police insignia (post WWII) for twenty years and never had any problems with the various DGA and colors used...... FD on the other hand throws me fits. Must be the color !!!! I had the same issues with VoPo Feuer.

Thanks to you guys I am beginning to get a greater understanding.

Andrew

quote:

Originally posted by JWotka:
The Feuerloschpolizei law created the Feuerschutzpolizei (from the Berufsfeuerwehren)which were to provide the sole fire fighting services in some 62 designated major cities in the Reich. Andrew, the FSchupo did not provide police authority like the Schupo nor did they supplement any other Feuerwehr forces.

Joe

OK, I had read somewhere that basically the FSP were like you said, the professional firefighters. But that at fire scenes, they did have official police powers in the absence of the Gendarme or Schupo. Also, that they could be called in to supplement the FW, which I assumed might have been later in the war during the aerial bombings.

As far as the FSP insignia, then it could be surmised that there is the potential for around 62 named patches ?

Andrew

Deleted

quote:

Originally posted by Huntzman:
Joe

OK, I had read somewhere that basically the FSP were like you said, the professional firefighters. But that at fire scenes, they did have official police powers in the absence of the Gendarme or Schupo. Also, that they could be called in to supplement the FW, which I assumed might have been later in the war during the aerial bombings.

As far as the FSP insignia, then it could be surmised that there is the potential for around 62 named patches ?

Andrew

Andrew, by 1941, the list had grown to 85 cities and large towns having a Fire Police Authority. The sleeve eagle was to carry the name of the respective city/town location.

The FSchupo were governed by sections of the Deutschen Polizeibeamtengesetz of 1937. They were considered to have police executive authority, but were considered a technische Polizeitruppe. By your initial description "Feuerschutzpolizei: Provided police authority at fire scene and supplemented local FD.", I understood you to mean that the Fire Protection Police arrived, secured the area like the Schupo and helped with the local Fire Department. Where the FSchupo was stationed, they were the local fire department. There was no Feuerwehr. They arrived and fought the fires.There would have been no Gendarmerie involved, only Schupo. As executive police officials, I do not know they extent of their excutive powers.

Later in the war, the large air raids in cities saw smaller Feuerwehr units and FSchupo units being dispatched to the larger FSchupo cities to assist in battling the fires.

Joe

OK, that helps explain things much clearer. I don't know why I have such a mental block dealing with FD. So by and large, FSP was the professional FD in larger cities. FW was the volunteers in the smaller rural cities and WFW was basically the private guys in factories.

Basically it makes sense to have some form of law enforcement status. Like in the case of NYC where FD had peace officer status which allowed them to control fire scenes and take enforcement action when necessary.

I get it after awhile, albeit slowly..........

Thanks for the help,
Andrew

Hi Huntzman just to throw a spanner in the works, here is another for you to digest.

Luftschutzpolizei Feuerwehr

Something else you may be interested in is this cuff title for a werschutz fireman

Gary

Thanks for the additions to the post. Actually I had completely forgotten about the Luftschutzpolizei - Feuerwehr.

Thanks also for posting the Werkfeuerwehr cuff title. I did manage to pick up a WFW patch. So I am getting there, albeit just a bit slowly.

Andrew

Picked up this heavy bullion patch but couldn't find were it belonged. Perhaps you guys on this old thread could help?
Thanks,
-serge-

Serge,

I will let the "eagle weenies" comment on your Werkschutz officer eagle but I am not too keen on it.

Here are the late war Werkfeuerwehr officer collar tabs that went with your sleeve eagle. These Beamte style officer tabs were standardized after circa 1943 as I recall.