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#125240 03/17/2007 03:26 PM
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Woke up this morning to a plethora of photos from a former good friend of mine (anyone who sends photos like this in the morning, without a warning is pure evil !!) Eek Still cleaning the coffee off my keyboard.

I wish I had one of these.............

Andrew



Interested in all 3rd Reich & Post WWII Polizei Insignia
#125241 03/17/2007 08:38 PM
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Hi Andrew,
Thanks for posting this very nice photo of a big tschako collection

There are certainly some very nice shako's in this picture.
Especially love the Sachsen Tschako (2nd row from top, 2nd from left) and of course the generals (3rd row from top, 2nd from left)
Also never seen an actual Red plume before which was for bandsmen. What a sight it must have been, a whole band wearing these bright plumes.
The Officers Tschako with the cutout swas (as was often done postwar) is also very nice.

Top row, 2nd from left is IMO postwar (Hamburg?)It looks correct for the postwar period so I think nothing wrong with except that it is not pre-1945

There are however some Tschako's of which I have serious doubts.
The two black and white Tschako's with gold insignia I believe to be postwar hamburg Traffic police Tschako's with added insignia.
Also I would not know who would have worn the black and white officers tschako with golden scales (3rd row from the top, far right). There were no officers in the Verkehspolizei as far as I know.

Does anyone know the what state the tschako on the 2nd row, 3rd from left is? I've never seen this insignia on a Tschako before (allthough an eagle in similar configuration is correct for was used in prussia ca 1933-1934 period for flags etc) but the eagle as it is presented here looks to me like a Bergbau eagle.

So IMHO an extremely nice set of tschako's, with a few really exceptional ones but also some no-good items

thanks for posting

#125242 03/17/2007 09:41 PM
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Ernst

I don't know enough about the TR and earlier tschakos to even begin to give an opinion. I do know this was just one of about 8 different photos showing some of the most incredible collection of 1800 & 1900's pickelhaube and tschakos I have ever seen. The extent of the collection would lead me to think the collector is extremely advanced.

I'm personally not sure who wore the one (2nd row, 3rd from the left).

I do know the other states (post WWII) represented are Berlin, Hamburg, Bremen and Baden.

Andrew


Interested in all 3rd Reich & Post WWII Polizei Insignia
#125243 03/18/2007 03:51 AM
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Hello,

I must agree that the black and white Tschakos are post war. These were NOT used during or prior to the TR period. I have seen photos of this collection. He has THE most amazing collections of police pickelhauben I have ever seen! No doubt VERY knowledgable in that area.

Regards,
Bill Unland

#125244 03/19/2007 05:19 PM
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Ernst, my screen does not provide a clear display of the plate on the shako you are questioning. Does it have the swaz on the breast? I have seen a very few shakos with this plate. Like you write, it is based on the new Preussen Wappen (crest) adopted under Goring in 1933 and found on the Prussian clamshell bayonets as well as cartouche box plates. The first time I saw such a shako was in a book on III Reich headgear by a man named Bozeman published back in the late 1960s or early 1970s. I will make a scan of that picture. I have seen one or two others since. I don't think the plate is for the Bergbau. I don't know how or when they were produced. I don't believe the change in the Prussian crest reached the shako plates.
It is a handsome collection of shakos. Reminds me of mine, though I never had many post WWII shakos. He is missing the III Reich traffic shako it seems or perhaps that is in another photo?


"This hobby is a continuing education"
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and Walther PP #975557
#125245 03/19/2007 07:18 PM
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Joe,
It aint Bergbau. Just checked my files and the Bergbau eagle carries a shield over the lightning bolts.

About it having a swas at its chest; The picture isn;t that clear on my screen either however I assume it is there because I have never seen this eagle design without it.

Only metal insignia with this eagle that I know of are the Feldjägerkorps Police starburst insignia (has this eagle in the center) and the items you mention (clamshell and cartouche).

Anyone have period photographic or regulatory evidence of the use of this eagle in the early days?

#125246 03/19/2007 09:20 PM
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A very neat collection of Tschakos! I agree that the black and white Tschakos are postwar Hamburg traffic police. Having said that, they are nice helmets and are quite collectable with the correct insignias.

I have seen the questioned eagle insignia before as well. I know of one other black Tschako that has been drug around for years by a dealer who makes helmets out of various bits and pieces. I always thought that this was a transitional fire department insignia for a spike helmet but I am not at all certain.

George


"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
#125247 03/19/2007 11:00 PM
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Here is the rest of the collection. Impressive by anybody's standards! ALL police.

Regards,
Bill Unland

pol1.jpg (47.56 KB, 149 downloads)
#125248 03/19/2007 11:01 PM
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one more a little closer:

pol2.jpg (27.57 KB, 146 downloads)
#125249 03/20/2007 01:11 AM
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Some great looking pieces!

A thrill to see so many nice ones!

Please post some close ups of these
beautys!

PVON

#125250 03/20/2007 02:43 AM
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Bill

That's the same collection !! Absolutely amazing. I'm not a big pickelhaube fan, thats much earlier than my area of interest, but those Tschakos are fantastic !!!! Some of the post war state ones are extremely rare. I think the Berlin one he has is the original "High Crown". I'd be hard pressed to select a favorite.

Andrew


Interested in all 3rd Reich & Post WWII Polizei Insignia
#125251 03/20/2007 01:54 PM
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Thanks for posting the rest of the story Bill. Indeed, a fantastic collection. What is red colored shako? I wish there was more detail to the photos. Quite an education.

Ernst, apart from the order creating the new Preussen Wappen, I know of no other written evidence of its use.

George, I think that shako plate was at one of the past SOS events. You're right. It appears on a Feuerwehr spike in that headgear book too I think. I will pull it out for a scan.

One point of discussion. Does anyone worry about storing their shakos resting on the visors? Although there is some support to some of the headgear in these photos, I have read that this is very bad for the stiching of the visors. Other collectors suggest displaying old shakos and spike on a support, taking pressure off the front and back visor stiching. Or, store them on the top, upside down.


"This hobby is a continuing education"
Looking for Walther Model 8 #727649
and Walther PP #975557
#125252 03/21/2007 05:39 AM
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Here is the scan from the 1968 book "Collectors Guide/German Relics" by Stan Bozich.Does the name ring a bell Bob Coleman? He gives you a special acknowledgement.

Anyway, two versions of wear of this odd "Prussian" plate are shown: on a black leather shako and a Beamte style pickelhaube. The Assmann catalog has a large open wing eagle plate for Feuerwehr, but it has only a helmet and crossed axes on the breast, not the swaz. The details of these two pieces of headgear are not clear. The shako chin strap seems to be modern visor strap as there are no buckles. I can remember seeing one of these or a relation. Can't remember if it was shako or spike. Is this what you recall George?

EarlyPrussianPlate.jpg (49.95 KB, 110 downloads)

"This hobby is a continuing education"
Looking for Walther Model 8 #727649
and Walther PP #975557
#125253 03/21/2007 01:21 PM
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Joe,

Thanks for finding these photos. Yes, this is what I was thinking of. The Tschako I am thinking of has been drug around for years by a Nebraska helmet dealer who is best known for painting up US steel helmets to various units. If he has one, it is almost certainly a put-together. It looks like you can see a washer or a different set of holes at the top of the wings on the Tschako in the "reference book" picture does it not?

I have also seen this eagle with an attached city Wappen on the chest where the swastika is on this one. I have always thought these were various city fire departments when seen on the nickeled spike helmets rather than police. It is interesting that the eagle on the Tschako in the collection is slightly different than this eagle in the book.

George


"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
#125254 03/21/2007 01:38 PM
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You're right about the eagles George. Differences in the wings. The first one looks more like the Pro-Patria eagle on the Goring flag.

I can't tell whether the red musicians plume is horse hair or buffalo hair. The former would be stiffer of course.


"This hobby is a continuing education"
Looking for Walther Model 8 #727649
and Walther PP #975557
#125255 03/21/2007 07:30 PM
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OK... I just found the first emblem (from the collection) pictured on page 159 of Rädecke's "Polizei-Abzeichen" (Vol. 2) 1918-1945. He states it is an example of the new Prussian Landeswappen from 2.10.1933. He says it was also the Tschako emblem according to RdErl.d.MdI. vom 18.7.1933. These dates seem oddly reversed to me. I do not have that citation.

Now, Rädecke has some fake insignia and helmets in his books and the eagle seems to be a line drawing rather than a picture of the insignia on a Tschako. So, I don't know if this is correct or not.


"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
#125256 03/21/2007 08:15 PM
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Hi George,
You found an interesting note in Radeckes book. The order indeed exists and deals with Tschako for generals. The eagle is described as the "Altpreußischen fliegenden Adler (Vergoldet)"
I am not sure if this was the insignia as shown by Radecke(and in the pictures above). That design was introduced a few months later and is described as the new flying eagle as opposed to the description of Juli 1933 which describes the "Old flying eagle"

No mentioning of a version for officers and EM/NCO


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