UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons German Sword & Miniatures Forum birthday sword question

Hi,

What would be a ballpark value for a birthday sword from a known recipient

thanks
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The sky would be the limit on an SS birthday sword.

And that�s before the �bidding war� started.

And, based on my experience buying one honor sword directly out of the woodwork, 4 SS Honor Daggers, and other rare items, it is very difficult to get a "bidding war" started on such an item for many reasons. Once a piece like this is made public, it becomes much less desirable in the minds of most of the people who can afford it.

Craig:
Would you explain you last statement a bit further? Pehaps I'm a little slow today but I'm having trouble grasping your point about desirabililty here.

Bidding is closed.

Alea jacta est

I would be interested in one of those less desireable ones! Any one!

Mark

It's not a matter of actual end-user desirability (hell, they are all desirable, some more than others, but all super pieces). What I mean by "desirable" is from a reseller point of view. We always want "fresh" items that we can take credit for finding (it's great advertising). Such activities boost esteem among our colleagues and with collectors. View this for an example:

http://www.germandaggers.com/schroeder.htm

It was the first big piece I scored, I did it all by myself when I was in my 20s, I beat out other dealers (back when I was not a full time dealer at all). Basically, that piece put me on the map, and I would have paid much more for it just to beat out the other guys.

Even collectors know this thrill - I often sell pieces and the buyers won insist on being the ones to "present" an item to the forums for the first time, to get the glory, so to speak, of "finding" it. For that privilage, I find that both collectors and dealers will pay more money.

Also, with

Rare or one-of-a-kind pieces are very saleable when they first appear. As time passes, they become less desired by top end buyers as they feel that if they don't move they have "a problem" and are risky.
This is foolish, but a reality. Also, it is thought that they might have been sent out and returned (often times no where near the truth) and some are hesitant to be the "first to buy" (eg. too high priced) and then, once sold, regret not having been the one who got "the buy of the century".
With all this said, it is pretty much of a game and just knowing where to go and what to ask is the key at being a successful dealer.
In the area of daggers I can say: Been there, Done that.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria
PS: Most of these pieces NEVER make the market because the dealer has his stable of prime buyers waiting the chance to be called on a "certain item".

I think it is because there are much to much "investment thoughts" in what should be a hobby. Sometimes nerves are blanc as on stock exchanges. I see this "investment thoughts" pushed by several mainly high end dealers. I for myself do collect for myself. I buy an item for me and not for selling it. If I like a FHH or a bithday degen (I do not own BOTH of them )I buy it for me for a price I think it is within my range and immediately after buying the item falls in a "black hole". Naturally I have not to make my living of trading with these items. Just my thoughts.

Dear Mr. Weinand,

You are so right when you say :

"With all this said, it is pretty much of a game and just knowing where to go and what to ask is the key at being a successful dealer."

I would like to add that the good reputation of honesty and integrity of a dealer towards his business partners and clients is essential.

I am happy to know some straight and honest people, collectors and dealers who can be proud of their reputation.

I think that it is a good thing to point out publicly the honesty of the dealers who deserve their clean and excellent reputation.

All the best

Thor

I agree, Thorston. I have done nothing but get into trouble and waste my time by "exposing" the crooks in our field. It's much more enjoyable to sing someone's praises, than to say negative (but true) things.

Here is the sword that I found.

It will be up to the new and legitimate owner to reveal or not to reveal the name of the recipient

Thor,
Honesty and reputation is a given. Without these you aren't a dealer, for long anyway.
Years of experience in the hobby will determine that condition.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria
Serving the collector for over 50 years

Wotan,
Regardless of how you feel about "investing in the hobby", when you are gone someone will sell somethings. That being said, the item will realize a profit or a loss.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

2

I heard that the last time when a Geburtstagsdegen sold for $100k....... That was an interesting bidding these last days

And Wotan - I agree with you 100% - many dealers and collectors banter back and forth about "investments" and they haven't the foggiest what they are talking about. As a dealer, I find it very irresponsible to sell an item as a "great investment" unless you know what that actually means, especially to a new collector. As a dealer, a "great investment" for me is something I can buy for below what I know I can sell it for, in a reasonable amount of time. As a collector, a "great investment" for me as a collector means something that I believe will be worth more in 10 years than it is today (relative to other places I could put my money). That said, a Teno Leader dagger in mint condition for $1500 is a SUPER investment for me, and for anyone. At retail, it's NOT a good investment at all for anyone, in my opinion, but merely a fun purchase, if you want it. Percentage wise, I buy mostly for resale (due to the large volume I do), but there are those things I WILL buy at retail, because I like them. Some uniforms are a good example of the 2nd category for me.

Thor:
That is the most incredible item I've seen posted here in a long time. I expect that these are in no danger of being reproduced as the requisite skill set to do so aren't available.
Craig:
Your approach to this hobby as both a dealer and collector to me is prudent. But I try to keep in mind that our time here is at best short. Being that's the case sometimes you just have to say "What the hell; I like it and owning it will give me some enjoyment so I'm going to just go ahead and buy it!!"
Jim

Yes Craig,

That's true. And without revealing anything without the agreement of the legitimate high bidder and future owner I think that we may say that this sword is a good investment

Very interesting sword, knot looks good first rough view for the sword too but such things would need a very good hand on inspection for my view. I know from my own about LW general swords and diplomatic dagger copys who look excelent good but where produced shortly in the fiftys in germany. With this I don�t wonna scare anybody especially not Thorston but every item needs a good inspection and also the source would be helpfull too for the owner from where you found it. And for sure there are a view people out who would take it for sure for 100k.

I think that the �X Factor� for this sword and its value is the �who� it was awarded to. Which Thorston has wisely decided not to reveal. The name of the recipient and his personal history could cause some wide fluctuations in its value to prospective purchasers.

I do like Ron�s statement: �Most of these pieces NEVER make the market because the dealer has his stable of prime buyers waiting the chance to be called on a �certain item".� Which I have seen happen from time to time - especially with high ticket items. Earning a good reputation can be difficult given all the questionable items that appear sporadically. But at the end of the day it is honesty, even if it can adversely affect a sale, that sets the really good dealers apart from the rest. FP

Ron�s statement is true, and it happen mostly with the real extravaganza items these days. They will never show up on the puplic market.

It's not really magical that many items never make it onto the public marketplace - just good business. Knowing what your customs need is just one tool in the kit of an effective dealer. Because of a standing order I have, along with pre-payment, you won't see me offering any MINT Iron Crosses. When they come in, they currently go to a particular customer who wants them. Same went for a like-new nickle SS Officer sword I recently got in. I had a guy waiting years for a good one, and so there was no need to post it for sale. Same went for a DE Standard that recenly came out of the woodwork - it was in my hands less than 4 hours because I had a guy looking for one. Same goes for Gold Party Badges and mint SS Daggers, and some other hot items. In fact, some dealers keep no inventory, prefering this method of doing business. I keep some inventory. Others keep huge stocks of inventory. It just all depends on the dealer, his finances, and his business model.

Craig, I see from reading your last post that you are doing more business overseas. You substituted Customs for Customers as I read it. Was this a little slip?
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Oops - I meant customer - we all know what customs needs!

Craig is right on the money with his observation. I have dealt with other dealers, some very good...but none know me personally and what I will take better than he does.

The Allach piece "Der Fechter" was a prime example of this. He knows what customers will want which items. That is a big thing and he always stays in contact....for years. I think he has a big database on who owns what and is ahead of the curve on that count. You don't need inventory if you know whose shelf it's on!

Mark

That's why I keep my shelfs in the bank and don't show too much.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Excellent shelves Mr. Weinand,

And I just wonder how it would affect the value of the sword if the name of the recipient would be known?

In a piece of this magnitude, it is vitally important to know who is was given to at the time. I would imagine it would increase the value by at least 100%.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Ron, aren't all SS Birthday Swords named? All of the ones I know about are.

Craig,
Only if the seller lists the name in the advertisement. If you don't disclose the name, no one will know who's it is until it sells. SOMETIMES, people who acquire certain pieces don't want the name out and try to make this a condition of the sale. I always wonder why? Could it be the manner in which the item was acquired??
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

The victim�s name escapes me at the moment, but a while back a major collection was stolen (actually over the years there have been multiple thefts including targeted ones). Because some of the items were either named or had some other unique identifiers when part of the loot was discovered it not only came back to the thieves - but the individual who was in possession of some of the items (and others) that were also stolen. [While it might called different things in different places - being charged with �RSP� (Receiving Stolen Property) usually causes the new �temporary owners� a lot of headaches. That at the end of the day makes them wish that they had never had anything to do with the stolen property.]

I am not saying that is the case here - but if the true ownership of items might be in question not disclosing specific information is not unusual. FP

My understanding is that what we call the "Birthday Swords" are all named.

It was something that was usually awarded on the 50th birthday, which is milestone celebrated more in Germany than here.

My own thought is that the value would be increased if the sword of someone highly nasty, like Martin Bormann, or someone well know known, like von Ribbentrop (sp?)would come pop up.

I don't think that the sword being discussed now is from one of the super bad guys.

Dave

Finally some news on this Birthday Sword from a couple of friends in Europe.

The sword was presented to Ernst-Heinrich Schmauser, usually called Heinrich Schmauser.

Born 18 January 1890 so he would have got the sword in January of 1940 when he turned 50.

SS Number 3359

Bad pictures, but better than nothing.

The first trace I can find of him is that he is supposed to be the SS officer who got Theodore Eicke and his SS assistant into the Stadelhelm Prison in Munich. He then showed them to cell 474 where Ernst Rohm was being held so they could shoot him.

Obviously a great start to an SS career.

Here he is showing Himmler through Auschwitz-Birkenau. He was the regional commander, I think.

He is second from the left

Another picture. He is in the middle.

Interestingly enough, his name is mentioned (but incorrectly spelled as E.H. Schauser) as a possible recipient on page 532 of TW's SS book

Dave