UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Army, Navy, and Luftwaffe Forum 1st and second pattern navys`

hi all, here`s a real numbnuts question. what is the differance between the two patterns of km dagger?. is it the scabbards?. i am not a km collector, would go so far as to say i don`t like `em!. heers and sa`s are my thing, but i keep reading posts on here refering to one or the other marks. can somebody please widen my `knowledge base` and help me out!. many thanks in advance, steve.

Hi Steve, I think first pattern refers to those KM daggers that originally had the old imperial pommel, but were converted by trading that old pommel for the new one having the national emblem (eagle and swastica). Second pattern would be those KM daggers that were made later, and already came from factory with the new pommel. I cannot now check Wittmann�s book to corroborate this, so lets wait for expert opinions, as there may be more differences

thanks for the quick answer gustavo. taking that as the difference, is there a way to tell?. and a question for someone who has the books to hand, or just knows , why do some have the hammered scabbards, and some the `lightning bolt` version?.thanks again gustavo, you`re a gent!. . steve.

Gustavo is nearly right although the socalled first model does NOT have the imperial pommel (open or closed crown) but the socalled "flaming ball" a s shown here. The dagger here has a hammered scabbard which was an option due to the buyer (slightly higher price and therefore not so much bought during the period abnd therefore today not so often encountered as the lightning bolt scabbard).
It is documented by photographs (TTW�navy book) that these "1st mod." daggers were given to F�hnriche up to 1938 when an official change of the pommel was made.

As Wotan said, the scabbard has nothing to do with being 1st or 2ns model. It was an optional upgrade at the buyers discretion (and expense).
Now as I understand it, a 1st model naval which had the "ball" pommel, then replaced by the eagle w/ swaz. is identifiable from a second model naval (with issued eagle and swaz.) by the type of pommel variation.
I think that the 1st model navals w/ replacement pommels all have the same generic "replacememt" style eagle. Where as the 2nd model had pommels made by the manufacturer of the dagger itself and are identifiable by small details as having been pommels made after the date that the dagger design was changed and not of the "replacement" pattern.
I may be wrong on this, but that is how I understand it.

Here is the later one, with "normal" lightning bolt scabbard (in german called "reglementierte Scheide").
There are transitional daggers which started their life as 1st mod. and were later converted to 2nd mod. daggers. In my opinion only detailed knowledge on makermarks, knowlegde on how the different firms have manufactured their daggers at certain times and most careful inspection of a certain dagger can tell how a dagger really has started it�s life.

thanks for the replies ,i think i understand now, i didn`t know that the hammered scabbards were an option. and when it comes to `generic` pommel shapes etc. i can see me getting volume one of the johnson series of books for christmas!.as always this forum comes up trumps, many thanks for the help guys, much appreciated. steve.

Wotan is right as usual. The Navy dagger has many variations and upgrades --and study is necessary to understand it fully. Even then-another unusual type can appear at any time.