UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories SS & SA Uniform Forum Introduction of Grey Caps in the SS

On the recent thread concerning black items the subject came up of when grey caps were introduced into the SS for officers. I thought it might of interest to pursue this as a separate topic.
The officer corps of the LAH were definitely equipt with them by June of 1935 as this photograph taken at the Hammelburg training grounds shows. This shot was published in the unit history 1. Kompanie by Verlag Shuetz.
If anybody can provide other period evidence of introductory dates or styles of cap it would be excellent to see them.
As can be seen in this shot the cap by this early date is already quite a high peaked saddle form.
The badges are most likely an early army eagle with a first pattern skull.
Derek

Thanks for this. I have seen this image in the German volume on the 1st company, LAH. The questions I have are these: a.) where did the natty officer chap in the corner buy his cap?; b.) how was it marked inside? c.) what documentary evidence of the sort that you, colleague Chapman, are so expert, exists to explain this process to us? The colleague David aka Violin cap is of later date, I think, because the black tag in his cap is of about 1936/7 is it not? (someone correct me on this, I shall not break into pieces, really...)

In the same volume, I believe, are many of the reportage images of later in the year, when AH visited the Kaserne in the Finkensteinallee and addressed the officer corps. This was ca. December 1935 or so, and the officers present are all with grey caps in hand or on the head.

many thanks for the image and I look forward to furthe revelations. I would also note that Mollo has an image in vol. III of officers at Altengrabow Truppenubeungsplatz in grey and black headwear with grey uniforms viz: p. 37 of the edition of 1991.

Finally, I should mention that the new and mysterious owner of the Shea early grey cap (subject of heated debate...) is going to send it to me for inspection (I guess whoever read my screed here and is attracted to the wisdom of my Canadian senior colleague...) When I receive the cap, I shall offer my own assessment of it.

When were grey schirmmutzen first introduced? A very worthwhile and intriguing question for sure. I think it quite possible that the date will be pushed further and further back than we could have ever imagined as more evidence becomes available. Will we ever uncover an RZM marked grey cap with the hatters logo also? Tha t would indeed be a truly remarkable find..

I wonder if the field gray visor was made in earth brown or earth grey ? would not that be something to behold?
jim

BenVK....You can uncover such a cap on Bill Sheas' site "The Ruptured Duck".It could also be yours for less than 9Gs.Now in regards to the original topic....Pg. 10 "Backbone of the Wehrmacht Vol. II- Sniper Variations of the German K98k Rifle" by Richard Law has a photo (dated by the caption) to be ca. 1933.3 members of the LAH entourage along with Dietrich(so 4 total) wear grey visor caps.The caption dates the photo to be 33...however an SS officer in the photo appears to wear a 34 totenkopf.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Toncar:
I wonder if the field gray visor was made in earth brown or earth grey ? would not that be something to behold?
jim

Has anyone ever seen a peaked cap made in the same textile as the earth brown or earth grey Schiffchen of this type, that is, the 2d cap from the bottom? I believe these items are the property of Grant Bias, whom we thank in absentia for said image. sapere aude.

Dave T,
Can you post the photograph you refer to?
Derek

Derek,I do not have a scanner...however if I do get access to a scanner I will try to post.The caption states the photo is ca. 1933 However I belive it is more likley 34 or possibly 35.In the photo an SS-Oberfuhrer clearly has a 34 totenkpof on his cap.The SS officers wearing grey caps (w/visible insignia) have the early jawless totenkopfs.They appear to be wearing army eagles above the totenkopf.The bands of the caps clearly appear black so I wouldnt speculate that they are converted army caps.While I do not have Vol I of "Backbone of the Wehrmacht" it is also stated in the caption that the photo is from a series with other photos of the same visit( by Hitler) in Vol. I.

Mollo says: "...until the introduction of grey head dress in 1935-6, black peaked and field caps were worn with grey uniform..." vol. III, p.37. However, from Derek Chapman's post, the grey field cap (which grey...??) was introduced in 1934.

Period photos of the LSSAH with the early gray cap. Perhaps colleagues Abenheim and Chapman might be able to glean from these a better time frame using other uniform clues in the photos but they are obviously early. David

Dear Violin,
Thank you for posting your photograph. I am fairly sure your photo was taken when the II and III Batallions of the LSSAH were on exercise at Koenigsbrueck during October 1935.
Jim Toncar kindly sent me the photograph of the SS officers with Hitler and it is not from 1933 but the Christmas visit of A.H. to Lichterfelde in December 1935.
Derek

Dear Colleague David, that's a wonderful image, and I have seen it before, but I cannot recall where. One other point to keep in mind with all of this is the following: until the Roehm Putsch in the early summer of 1934, the Verfuegungstruppe and the LAH within it were subordinate entities within the totality of the SA. In the wake of the Putsch, wherein the armed SS formations were central to the liquidation of the SA leadership, &c. as a kind of junior ally of the Reichswehr, Himmler was able to embark on the rapid build up of the SS in its varied roles, especially the internal security/paramilitary dimension with a kind of support from the army. The Wegner book on the Waffen SS describes this, as does the classic work of Hans Juergen Mueller (Hitler und das Heer...) So does the work of Robert Koehl as well as all the interesting stuff on SS finances. Thus, the real take off of the Verfuegungstruppe is from the 2d half of 1934 into 1935. Further, at the time, the secret re-armament begun under the last of the Weimar cabinets emerged into the open in the course of 1935 in the Saturday surprises (reintroduction of conscription, the unveiling of the Lw...) All of this germane background is to say that, I think much of what we see in such images as this dates from about late-1934 and in the course of 1935, in fact. Look in Klietmann and Hausser for two more or less good sources on just this sort of thing. There are also all the Munin Verlag illustrated histories of the various SSVT units, as well. I do not own all of these, of course.

Thank you, colleague David H. for a very nice image. The chap in the picture seems pleased with his graue Montur. I wonder what happened to him, and to his cap? Those of you who are cuff title experts can perhaps decipher the style of Stickerei, which seems somewhat garish in this image. Thanks again. I am sure that colleague Chapman has the relevant document from his encylopaedia of SS Verordnungs- und Befehlsblaetter.

The more labor intensive and expensive way to do this is via the picture archives in the Bundesarchiv as well as via the documents themselves, in their number. That is, to find the files of SS-specific images that are captioned. Colleague Chapman has enclosed pleasing, tantalizing bits of the documents in which changes in regalia are mentioned. May there are traces there?

quote:

Originally posted by derek chapman:
Dear Violin,
Thank you for posting your photograph. I am fairly sure your photo was taken when the II and III Batallions of the LSSAH were on exercise at Koenigsbrueck during October 1935.
Jim Toncar kindly sent me the photograph of the SS officers with Hitler and it is not from 1933 but the Christmas visit of A.H. to Lichterfelde in December 1935.
Derek

Said December 1935 visit to Finckensteinallee/Lichterfelde was much ballyhooed. You can see one or two of these images in the cigarette card book via H. Hoffmann, Bilder aus dem Leben des Fuehrers.

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Wonderful images. I shall let Derek Chapman generalize about these, but this is marvelous data. It is also proof of what Himmler was so angry about as concerns the tendency of these officers to ape the appearance of the army. In fact, this open collared grey uniform was experimented with by the Rw in 1928, a fact I had not known until recently. Also, such field exercises were also likely with military supervision or that of the Landespolizei, in turn. One cannot also exclude that some of these officers were ex military or Landespolizei, as well. Many thanks.

You might also notice the final image with the scissors Fernrohr that the chap with the Karte is wearing his Seitengewehr in a very army-like way. Dietrich did the same, in fact, which was typical for NCOs in the old army, was it not? No SS dagger here, to be sure. I know German Army officers who refused to wear the dagger because it was considered "national socialist," whereas the Degen was seen as soldierly. It is also a hoot that these officers wear the old pattern of army Hoheitszeichen and the new pattern, as well. Marvelous images, indeed. Maybe colleague Holden or Toncar will enlighten us further as to the origin of these images. Someone should marshall all these photos albums for a more nuanced and complete image of these early field uniforms. The reference to the 1928 style open collared Rw uniform is: Adolf Schlicht et al Die dt. Reichswehr: Uniformierung u. Ausruestung , '19-'32 (Wien, 2005) It is a publication of the Bavarian War Museum and is surely the finest book of its kind in any language.

Dear Violin,
Thank you for posting these Hoffmann shots. They were all taken at the Koenigsbrueck exercise in October 1935. The photograph of the LAH gun crew on page 34 of Mollo's Volume III is from this series.
Of particular note here is that one of the officers wears a completely unauthorized closed collar tunic.
To the best of my knowledge the SS dagger was not authorized for wear by the SS-VT.
To the point about the open collared tunic, several critics at the time accused the forces of adopting this pattern in emulation of the victorious Allied Forces. Boris Mollo, Andrew's brother, makes this point in his book on military fashion that defeated nations almost always adopt the uniform style of the victors.
Derek

Are there earlier Hoffmann reportage images of the LAH preserved in the US NARA, that is, say prior to this fall of 1935 set of photos? The French published Heimdal volume on the LAH seems to include many of these, does it not? My source does not explain whether the open collared uniform experiment in the Rw was abandoned because of nationalist opposition, although such was surely likely in 1928. My point is that the SA/SS uniform of 1932 followed a Rw example the existence of which I had not known as well as a British or French or even US prototype. In the 1950s, there was much objection to the new Bw uniform, as well, and to the abandonment of field grey, the dice shaker boot, &c. with the grey monkey jacket of the Bw. The piece about the dagger vs the Degen was told to me by an officer of artillery (des deutschen Heeres...) in the middle 1970s. The photos are wonderful and it is nice to know they are Heinrich Hoffmann images.

There are indeed other Hoffmann sets of photograph prior to these. Some cover the earliest training sessions at Juterbog and some of the LAH at their barracks.
This photograph shows Dietrich wearing a field cap with cloth covered visor and green band in July 1935.
I do hope others might have dated pictures from albums or periodicals to share that can accurately chronical the introduction of the grey uniform.
Derek