UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Miscellaneous Dagger Forum Yiiieeek -NO flaw- BUT period (!) rrpp

This is an EICKHORN (I appreciate THIS maker)middle period (heavily silvered steel scabbard with some frosting remaining) rrpp dagger with all the proper accouterments. Crossguard has -against common knowledge- NO flaw. I have to correct: As careful inspection with a magnifying glass revealed it has been produced with the flaw but then the flaw has been cleverly period camouflaged by the EICKHORN in house ciseleur.

reverse

scabbard

NOOOO flaw

And seldom seen period hangers

The hangers are correct.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

I know. The dagger too. I know.

I am sure this is covered somewhere else, and I am embarassed to ask the question, but... what is the flaw???
I understand that original railway daggers do exibit a flaw in the casting, (crodssguard?) but can anyone direct me to where I can see the flaw vs. a "flaw-less" fake?
Thnaks,
Johnny

v20102, look into my other thread "early rrpp" some rows down in this forum, compare the two crossguard fronts and you will recognize.
BTW the dagger here also is PERIOD and no fake.

Only Railways with the flaw to the crossguard are accepted by the collecting community.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria
PS: All of the Railways that I have ever encountered directly from WWII US Veterans have the flawed crossguard.

I am sorry but I CANNOT agree to this statement. In fact I am absolutely agains such a sensless statement.
Senseless because it is done against a doubtless period dagger. Because it does not have a "flaw" which is the only red thread for those unxperienced oon those rare daggers it cannot necessary be non period. I truely wonder you are making such a statement against the iron rule that it is necessary to hold such a dagger in hands. If you would have carefully read, close examination has revealed that the dagger has had "the flaw" during production but it has been camouflaged by a careful ciseleur prior to the silvering process.
There are quite a lot more criterias to proove such a dagger beeing period than the mentioned "flaw".
Exactly this all is the reason I have shown here this highly interesting dagger, to show that nothing is written in stone when careful examinations proove the other direction.
Finally I think myself also beeing a member of the dagger collecting community and I would not like have anybody speaking for me.
P.S.: This dagger came together with all it´s accouterments NOT from any WWII US Veteran but from the family of the former german wearer.

Aahhh, yes. I see the "flaw" thanks!!
Johnny

Wotan, no depth to the crossguard. Silver wash is not a plating. Too flat.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Hi Wotan,

Nice dagger and hangars. I have also one where the flaw has been camouflaged. It is unmaker marked but Eickhorn parts. It's heavy silver plated and has also some other quality improvements compared with the Eickhorn.Tom Wittmann looked at it and even got it photographed for future reference

frwi, nice to hear from another one. I remember having read of some others. I will look for them.
Ron, I am sorry again to dissagree totally. The measurements and dimensions and depths of this one are exactly the same as the other one I recently have shown.
I also have to disagree concerning "silver wash". It is heavy silvering, frosted remaining in small parts (as you can see)where protection laquer has remained and silver patination starting to turn to the (at last by me) so appreciated grey black as only heavy silvering (not easily to recognize in a scan) but never silver "wash" turns to.
It is quite possible that you do not have any experiences with these rarer variants of this generally rare dagger. More "common" ones are the later ones with those ugly simply burnished steel scabbards. Then there come the early ones with the built in scabbard throat (only EICKHORN has been the manufacturer of them) also heavily silvered and the most rare (but if you have luck you can see them from time to time) ar the middle style as shown here. I am deeply sorry as I really thought there would be much more experiences with the several legit variants. The dagger is with unquestionable proveniance.
But - perhaps they were faked already during the 3.R

Wotan, I own one with the formed throat by Eickhorn that I purchased directly from a veteran in St. Louis ten years ago and it HAS the flawed crossguard. Unquestioned original with original capture papers.
You and I aren't going to agree on this, but I will keep my opinion of the non-flawed crossguards.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Nice looking dagger and the crossguard looks to have been worked on were the "flaw" should be.An in hand look may be the best exmination.If I was buying I would be looking for the "flaw"only for the fact I don't know enough about this type and for resale.

Waiting on Wilma

The railway crossguard was made from aluminum or formed metal with a silver plate. How do you hand finish a plated metal and have the plating remain intact????
Hand finishing was only done of brass or silver metal or nickel silver pieces to my knowledge. Any pieces with a plating are not hand finished as the plating would be broken and the flaking would occur.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Ron, first I appologize for the bad scans. They let things sometims look different than they are in real (I have a scan of my TN-leader whch shows the pommel OVAL instead of round how it naturally is). Then, please read whot I wrote. I never said or wrote that my early one with the built in throat (pics are in a thread few lines down)would have NO flaw - it HAS the flaw as you could see in the pics (btw. you also have written in this thread). I only have writen that DIMENSIONS and MEASUREMENTS are exactly the same - nothing "no depth" to the crossguard in both cases - perhaps the scans do a trick.
You are totaly right that the crossguard is an aluminium (leightweight) one with a silber plating.
If you -please- carefully do read my writing - I have written that "the flaw" in this certain crossguard here obviously (easily to see under a magnifying glass even in a careful look at the scan here you might recognize it) has been camouflaged by an EICKHORN in house ciseleur PRIOR TO PLATING. Plating without question came over the ciseleurs work. You see this hand enhancing in several cases on custom eagle crossguards (yes, most early WKC ones were heavily silver plated aluminium), at some railway crossguards (even additional feathering occurs) and aluminium/heavily silverplated army crossguards.
Just my obserations.
Again, this dagger has been given with all it´s accompanying accouterments (THIS HANGER) from the period wearer to my grandfather who has been a railway employee at the cargo railway station at linz during war(cargo has been a centerpoint for the rrpp, like the extremly war important rr to the HG-steelworks at linz have been). The rrpp-officer has been a friend of him and has presented his dagger with it´s accoutements to him after duty. An unquestionable original.

Hi Wotan,

Same with mine. You can see there have been a flaw when studying it under a magnifying glas. Obviously the plating was done after the hand finishing.
Have also read about railways with a slightly smaller crossguard without the flaw.(i.e in Wittmanns 2000 Catalogue). There have also been others from well respected dealers now and then.

Wittman also had a 2nd Rail by E.Pack without the flaw, who never was a manufacturer for Railway Daggers. He had it for a long time.

Ron,I do own a HARTKOPF army. Roy tries to trace down one. I have never heard of one before or have seen another one. What if anybody would say "they were never a manufacturer for armies"???? I still think we do not know all. WHY and HOW can be stated PACK "never was a manufacturer for Railway Daggers"? Please let us know.
And, please, don´t misunderstand me, I don´t want to question your experiences which I really do appreciate or offnd you in any way but would like to have a serious discussion wherin all who are willing to can learn.
What is my understanding is that an item if in question should be examined very careful and in hands before beeing able to do statements. Buying from veterans even over years and decades might not cover ALL possible variants and small production series. Now, through internet and the benefit of camera technics we are able to see much much more and much better than it has been possible until now. Perhaps therefore we do need to adjust our knowledge here and there, now and then.
frwi, thank you again for your post and I appologize for beeing late in saying a heartly wellcome to GD.C.

Ron, you are right in that "textbook" is always easlier to sell. However, there is variants and they should not be considered fakes. Johnson also pictures one by Paul Weyersberg, with Eickhorn fittings and the flaw.
The one I refered to in Wittmanns catalogue was unmaker market and it sold. It also had an inscription on the blade. Graig Gottlieb also sold one not long time ago. Hopefully we someday will know more about these rare and beautyful daggers. I like mine and would'nt change it. Hope also to find an Horster that I can add to my collection.

Wotan, no disrespect, however, in my 50 plus years of experience and talking with others who buy directly from veterans as I do, the only known manufacturers for the 2nd Model Railway are Eickhorn and Horster. ALL the unmarked ones are Horsters. I believe that the different makers were originally unmarked Horsters and, some dealers believe, you have to have a TM blade to sell a dagger, so they added a TM marked blade. This practice was very common in the 1960s and 1970s. I HAVE SEEN IT DONE BY SOME OF THE LESSER EXPERIENCED DEALERS AT THE TIME!!!
There are certain traits common to both manufacturers that can distingush the maker. Scabbard rings, fittings, TMs and such can identify which one was the maker. There are distict differences between Eickhorns and Horsters. YOu can't mix the parts.
Horster marked 2nd Model Rails are unique. The TM on them is ONLY used on this dagger. You can't interchange blades from an Army or Luft 2nd to make a Rail. The scabbard rings are different size than an Eickhorn, etc.
JUST FROM MY EXPERIENCE, I can spot a rail by maker without examining the blade.
I don't know why some manufacturers had a lock on certain daggers. Red Cross Daggers, NSFKs, TeNos, NPEAs, 2nd Model Railways, etc. Say what you will, but only some manufacturers made these daggers and not others.
I believe when the air clears on dagger production, other models will be found to only have been manufactured by certain ones: RLB Jrs., for example, were only made by a few and, depending on first or second models, only some by one manufacturer: eg. Spitzer only made RLB Jrs, not a Leader's Dagger. Why? I don't know, but that's the way it was.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

quote:

in my 50 plus years of experience

In lieu of the fact that you are 59 years old and that you have been collecting for 50 ++ years, can you expand a little bit on the theory of "adding of trademarks" that happened say in 1960............. when you were 14 years old ? What exactly do you recall from these real early days when you started collecting at the age of 9 ?

JR, you're probably mistaken and Ron has to be much older than 59 or else, we would have to consider him as a "gifted child" !

Hello fellow collectors, please, no offending of our forum and collector fellows. I also did start "collect" being 8, 9 years old with another pupil of my class who has had bayonets, medals, knives and other interesting things for me. He brought it from farmers who have brought it home. And I also found several medals of WWI from my grandfather (I still own). We had a lot of fun with all thes items (and, I hav to amit, hav ruined also quite a lot at those times).
Naturally at this age I got no experiencs with rrpp daggers nor FHH daggers or so but the seed has been put into and the interest grew.
I have read with interest what Ron has writen about the rrpp daggers. I also have personal experiences with the certain outside looking of a rrpp to determine the manufacturer. I once have believed that EICKHORN has mad them all, also those without the mm. Afterwards, due to expriences I think HÖRSTER did some of their own. But I could observe a vast period exchanging of parts and even whole daggers so I personally think that HÖRSTER also did use EICKHORN rrpp parts sometimes and EICKHORN daggers also have been delivered and mm by another manufacturer.
Due to my experiences the exchange of blades postwar in nearly all cases would request some additional work (filing) which easily can be detected on those somehow fragile leightweight crossguards.
Just my thoughts and personal experiences and I am glad to hear and read what others do have.

Yes please tell us collectors what the dealers were doing back in 1950. Sounds like another case of over boasting, just like when all the Russians came to the max show on Sunday and bought all of your stock, haha

Well Boys!! I am 60. When I started there were no books, no information, no computers, but a lot more veterans who GAVE there daggers to kids and there were SEVERAL in my school who collected. Mainly from their fathers, one kid had 4 paratrooper helmets and 6 Imperial Breast Star medals. We even had one kid who had an Eickhorn catalog.
My first dagger was a Pack ground Rohm, but we didn't know what the name was removed for or who it was.
The good thing was that there were no fakes.
We went to our first "gun show" in 1959. I was 14 and saw my first experience with dealers. I watched a "dealer" who was a gun man cut cufftitles off SS uniforms and exchange broken parts on daggers. You remember these things at an impressionable age!!
A couple of years later, I saw my first Atwood fakes at the same show and bought a couple of Paul Seilheimer engraved post war bayonets as original.
So even when your young, things make an impression on you.
Too bad you guys didn't have those early experiences to guide you in today's market place or have the knowledge that you can only learn first hand as the fakes appear..
So make fun all you like, but I've been there and seen that.
As far as blade replacement is concerned even today, a TM piece will ALWAYS sell faster than an unmarked piece and SEVERAL original, unmarked Horster 2nd Model Rails have had their blades replaced with a TM one. In those early years dealers didn't know better nor did they ever think collectors would become that educated to LEARN FROM EXPERIENCE.
Been there and Seen that.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Ron, I personally think that when you set yourself up as the experts expert, you are going to get whacked. You may be correct in what you state about some daggers, but your method of delivery of information leaves much to be desired.

That's the undercurrent of what people are telling you. No one "knows it all and has seen it all". No one. A touch of humility would serve you well with fellow collectors of less experience.

No disrespect intended at all, just my personal observations.

Mark

By 1950 there were already outfits selling 'Nazi War Trophies'. These items appeared to be 100% original to the WW2 period. But they were reproduced by those that had the connections in Germany. The biggest customers of these 'trophies'!?? U.S. veterans of course..
In fact by the time Major Atwood went to Germany in 1960 there were others there at least 10 years before makeing their orders for remanufactured daggers, badges/medals, belt buckles etc.... , G.

Thanks Mark, but regardless of how you say things and what your intent is, the attitude in this hobby is far worse than any other that I have been a part of, past or present. People make of it what they want, not what you intend.
Therefore, I offer my experience and take the hits. If someone doesn't agree or takes exception, so be it. I have talked with many of the old timers about this attitude and many have left this forum for the very reasons you cite in this thread. Its too bad for all of us.
I find that many are too quick to comment without thinking and offend, whether it be by actions or words as you well know. Depending on how thick the skin is, they just don't comment anymore and leave if this is too much for them.
With that being said, I just ignore ignorance and plod on, to contribute what I know and have seen or experienced. I may not have been the first guy on the block, but I do have an early, low number.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Well spoken Ron.

Mark

We may not always agree on "how you say things" and it would certainly help to have a bit of a "simpler attitude". However, I can certainly appreciate your knowledge, experience and courage for staying active on GDC............while many other individuals have left, not being able to take a few hits and bruises.

Pat, nothing is "simple" in this hobby.

You're soooooooooo right on this one !

I hearty agree.

Ron,
Can you show us side by side comparisons of a Eickhorn and Hörster Railway daggers? Pointing out the differences between them.I'm sure all the unmarked Hörster blades now reside in Army and Luft daggers.How can I tell the difference?I think this would be a great learning experience.I have also heard stories from older dealers about this type of part switching.

Sorry, I can't as I keep all my daggers in my personal collection in the bank. I do too many shows to keep my collection at home. The banks in towns love me as I have several boxes.
Horsters have rings that are slightly larger in diameter than Eickhorns.
Also, as I have said in other threads, the TM on Horster marked blades is a two line written TM like you would see on the modified police style dress bayonet. No Horster monogram in a circle.
When my next NPEA book comes out I will elaborate on the Horster position of providing daggers for the NPEA's Burgsmuller and how you can tell Horster made the scabbards.
Horster seems to have had an inside tract on certain organizations, especially the youth and the Reichsbahn.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Doing a little research on 2nd Bahnschutz daggers and I needed to update this thread with new updated info.
I want to thank Ron for bringing this Horster 2nd Railroad dagger to out attention. And to Wotan for sticking by his guns and sharing his experience in this less known and murky area of Bahnschutz daggers.
http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/...290069875#2290069875

Just goes to show how scarce some variations are when you can go through 50 years thinking that you can safely say that there no other authentic varients...when one day one walks through the door and you go...WOW!


-serge-

Just for those who have not seen this before here is a 1939 pricelist of Hoerster confirming the Rail dagger.

First time I've seen this invoice. - Thank You Maxwell.

According to my understanding of Maxwell's invoice regarding the portapees it seems that two types were were approved and used. One we can assume is the "speckeled" version and the second a "Silver" (Army type?)type.
I can picture some collectors who had original "Silver" Bahnschutz portapees yanking them off and putting a fat "Johnson" on it saying: "Now, it's right"

Great Thread here. I want to thank all the contributors for their input.

-serge-

quote:

Originally posted by Johnny V.:
I am sure this is covered somewhere else, and I am embarassed to ask the question, but... what is the flaw???
I understand that original railway daggers do exibit a flaw in the casting, (crodssguard?) but can anyone direct me to where I can see the flaw vs. a "flaw-less" fake?
Thnaks,
Johnny

This might be the one you spoke of Johnny.
http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/...480077355#2480077355
And here's the flaw on my replica all same like Eickhorn.

Hi Terry,
Can you put a caliper to the crossguard and pommel and give us the width dimensions on this repro?
I think Red would like it for his list. Besides I'd like to know too.
Thanks!
-serge-

Wotan, can you tell us anything new about the square buckle Railway Hangers? Why the variation and how rare are they? Did they only come with the Eickhorn manufactured pieces?
Ron Weinand

Terry - Great info.
THANK YOU!
Johnny

Sorry Serge.. I sold my last one a couple of months ago PLUS I don't have calipers, just a dressmakers tape measure.

It seems that if memory serves me correctly, the square-buckle hangers always have some sort of DRGM/RZM marking combination on the back of the clips. I've seen upper suspension fittings both of the regular cloth type, and also the metal reinforced type (I just got a set of the latter in, the other day). I can measure the dimensons also, as the hangers came attached to a Horster example (no TM).

@ Ron: Unfortunately I don´t have any concrete information about the square buckle hangers. But I have two of them, one came with an EICKHORN and one with the late period HÖRSTER (both daggers came directly from the family of the period wearer). But naturally nobody can tell if they were delivered this way or one or both hangers were bought seperately during the period.
I do own two of them but nevertheless I think they are extremely rare and hard to find.

@ Craig: The lower clips of square buckle hangers are D.R.G.M. marked like all other comparable (same configuration) clips. No other marking, therefore also NO RZM marking.
All those square buckle hangers I have seen have/had exactly the same configuration.

Here a newer photograph of RRPP daggers, please take a look at the accoutrement.
Regards,

Craig Gottlieb currently shows his unmarked and therefore said HÖRSTER dagger with the hangers described by Ron (with RZM marked clips, metal reinforces upper fittings) which I have to admit that I have never seen before! I "always" (all these hangers are very rare) have seen only "my" variant, shown in the pic, up to now.
In our hobby you really never have to say never and for sure nobody has seen all.
Regards,

The 2nd Mod. Railway Dagger and crossguard flaw will be one of the questions discussed at the MAX Seminar Program: An Evening with Frederick Stephens at the Friday evening meeting.
I will have slides and a side by side comparison of the Eickhorn and Horster Rails.
Ron Weinand
Seminar Coordinator
Max Show

That will be great Ron.
To your knowledge have anyone reproduced the built-in throat version of the 2nd Bahnschutz dagger?
Thanks!
-serge-

No

Neither the built-in-throat RRPP dagger nor the also built-in-throat Youth leader dagger is reproduced (to my very best knowledge).
Regards,

Thank You Ron and Wotan.

-serge-

Quote
Neither the built-in-throat RRPP dagger nor the also built-in-throat Youth leader dagger is reproduced (to my very best knowledge).
Is this HJ leader replica of mine not a built in throat?

Ron in my experience,(8 years) in die casting. Usually die flaws are something that happen as a result of production. At least the first castings come off fine. I'm open to hearing other opinions but intuitively it does not make sense to me that from the very 1st example they were all flawed.
Hey, I'm open minded. Should make for interesting discussion Fri.

Just thought you guys may enjoy seeing another unusual varient of this scarce and currently IMO under-appreciated model. So I'll bring it to the MAX for your viewing and discussion.
Here is a one photo teaser. All that I'll say for right now is that it is not either a Eickhorn or a Horster. But it does have a Maker's Logo.

-serge-

@ Terry Pullen: Please show it detailed and the reverse of it.
Regards,

Ooooh Serge!
Interesting piece!
Flawless, in more ways that one...

Real beauty for sure, looking forward to hold it in my hands.

quote:

Originally posted by Pat:
Real beauty for sure, looking forward to hold it in my hands.

Many women have said that to me over the years!!

quote:

Originally posted by wotan:
@ Terry Pullen: Please show it detailed and the reverse of it.
Regards,

You'll agree that the workmanship is stunning!! There is no screw in the reverse of the scabbard. I bought this off eBan from a chap in Canada about 15 years ago.

If you have original ones this one shown by you is one of the more bad copies due to a lot of differing features.
Lately I have seen astonishing (near to perfect) better copies!
Concerning the troat: I am not sure because of the photographs but for me it looks like a "stick (pressed) in" throat but no "built in" throat.
Thank you for the effort of doing additional pictures.
Regards,