UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SS Dagger Forum Lettering on blade.

Has anyone come across a blade with the motto in the right place but thinner motto lettering (1.2mm on the vertical parts of the letters as opposed to the usual thickness of 1.5mm)? This particular dagger is an early M36 with a doble arrow forge mark & clamp marks on the tang.It has alot of cross grain & shallow scabbard runner marks.I am having a problem putting a photo on as they exceed the upload limit so I will Email photos.

There are a few motto styles, mail me the pics and I'll post them if you like... redbaron@tiscali.co.za

Red

I would like to see that too.

"Reading" SS blade mottos and trying to attribute them to specific makers is a challenge that rarely yields concrete results. My opinion* is that the templates or acid-resisting devices placed on the blades were items made by several suppliers and I presume that even these supplier products changed over time. Complicating the issue is that I believe* that the blades of the small makers might have been ground, etched, and finished by a specialty concern rather than by maker.

JR's recent thread points out at least one example where the etch does give away the Rohm vs non-Rohm examples. The production period of Rohm daggers was short, 3-5 months, and Boker obviously used one supplier. After Rohm was assassinated, Boker used a different template with a new version of their trademark and without the Rohm dedication.

Dave

* These are opinions based on observations and could well be totally incorrect. If anyone has better info or another theory please post it.

Posting for Sharpe...

Dagger

Chained

Sharpe,

This motto is a known pattern seen on M36 daggers. The motto etching on M36 daggers is often quite poor compared to the earlier maker marked types, usually quite shallow, but precise. Yours does look a little peculiar as the etch seems rough and badly formed.

I would like to see some detailed pics of the rest of the dagger including a closeup of the motto, the chain links and the clover leaf hanger...

Red

Thanks for putting the photos on the forum, I will try & get hold of a better camera,than the 6 pixel one I used.

quote:

Complicating the issue is that I believe* that the blades of the small makers might have been ground, etched, and finished by a specialty concern rather than by maker.

There is a relatively long list of RZM approved subcontractors for the dagger makers. Taken together with the list of makers itself. It's not hard to see that quite a bit of what is normally ascribed to maker(s) may have more to do with subcontractor(s). Which would tend to confirm Dave's belief. With the RZM period merely being an approved extension of prior commercial practices. FP

Just an observation but the blade looks reground and polished. Thus leading to the smaller letter thickness on this blade. Just look at how the light reflects off of this blade it certainly reflects as though it has been polished post-TR era. I know that the factory did much more quality work than this blade exhibits. Just an opinion.

Posting another pic for Sharpe...

Red

Links

Hanger

Crossguard

Thanks to redbaron for the photos.As I said the motto has thinner lettering (1.2mm),but the etching seems neat enough for an early M36.Even though I borrowed a better camera I could not seem to get a photo that shows the cross grain,just got a bright shiny blade.Amongst others, I did get one properly showing the owner's engraved name (Erwin Kuther),as shown above.Even though it is on the correct side,I am always suspicious of these inscriptions,as in someone trying to up the value.

I fogot to mention the chain has split nose skulls on it.I first saw one of these in a book, even though the skulls were not mentioned by the author.I do not know who did these chains,just that they do exist.

Sharpe, its an interesting piece for sure, with the so-called Type X chain. The dagger seems fine to me from what I can see, although I can't personally come to terms with the motto etch, can't say I've seen one this rough, even on a M36. There is a current thread in the SS section which shows this motto pattern, and is more to the definition and detail I would expect to see.

Let's see what the others have to say...

Red

Yes when you compare the pictures mine does not look so neat.I am even more glad it has the double arrow forge mark & no deep scabbard marks.It is a shame the maker could not put more care & effort into the etching,because the dagger has survived pretty well.

A previous owner of this dagger got the history of Erwin Kuther(2 dots over u so Kuether) from Robert McDivitt,I have condensed & picked up some imfo from the areas he was in.BORN 20 June 1905 in Berlin.He was in the Hitler Youth & awarded the Golden Honour Badge.He was awarded a Danzig Cross 2nd class, these were given to Danzig Home Guard platoon commanders.SS Ausweis No.276209,SS-Mann on 12 march 1936 & rose to rank of SS-Obersturmfuhrer (Waffen SS).He took part in the Austrian & Czech. Sudetenland occupations.I think due to his age he was put into Ersatz (replacement) Battalions of various units (including Totenkopf & Horst Wessel) as well as various SS admin departments & not on the front.From March 1942 to June, he was at Lublin in Poland, when the Lublin Ghetto was removed & shipped mainy to Belzec cocentration camp, this was the first ghetto to be cleared.His next role was inspecting the concentration camps.15 july 1942 onwards he was in various Ersatz units at Heidelager training camp in Poland & some SS admin departments.He went back to Lublin for Aktion Erntefest,basicaly the final purge for that area.He then seems to become involved with the Sipo (security police) & the SD (security service).11 April 1944 he was in the 18 SS Volunteer Panzer Grenaidier Division (Horst Wessel) as part of the Ersatz Battalion.Then to an SS Panzerjaeger (assault gun) Ersatz Battalion.He ended up back in Berlin as part of the SS Regiment 75, a supplementary reserve/ general SS unit.No idea what happened after that.During his SS service he was awarded an SS Honour Sword & Totenkopf Ring, hopefuly someone has got one of these.The photo shows part of the Lublin Ghetto, Kuther is not one of the soldiers.

If anyone has an opinion on the style of engraving (and its authenticity) on the cross guard or has owned this dagger,I would like to hear from you.Oviously it goes without saying if someone does know what happened to Erwin Kuther after 1944 let us know, his history ends all too abruptly.

Need to see some real good pics of the engraving close up but it seems to be upside down?. Normally they are done the other way around.

Need some better pics of the blade dedication close up but it does look like its been polished or something.

It is quite unusual to find SS daggers with personalised crossguards, Mongo Bongo raises a good point on the engraving being 'upside down' too.
It would be interesting to see a few clearer pictures.
Cheers

Just for the record here as I was recently raked over the coals for owning a Himmler with an "Overpolished" blade it's probably the photography here just as it is in my case. Try as I might my blade looked extra shiney and without any crossgrain in every picture I took.
Jim

Yeah could be fine might just be the pictures, you cant really tell from these.

Thanks for the replies, I have not seen many personalised but have seen them either way, I know they all should have the engraving on the inside.I forgot to point out that the photo(unfortunately the best I could seem to get) is supposed to show that the Erwin part is more worn than the Kuther especialy on the E & top of the r, due to the way the dagger rubs against the leg when worn.This was reassuring when it was recently pointed out to me as it goes against my intial doubt of someone, who can engrave trying it on.

I was at the Farnham Maltings militaria show (Hampshire,England) & ran into a man who deals in German Soldbuchs,Wehrpasses & other documents.He had a look at the dagger scabbard (I didn't take the dagger as riding my bike to the show with the dagger under my jacket would get me in jail if stopped)& a very long look at the research file.I said I was trying to find out more about the man & he offered to take a look, I think to satisfy his need to find out what happened to Kuther as he did not want anything for the search.Anyway Kuther's final assignment in 1945 (Robert McDivitt put as illegible due to the very bad handwriting) was to a Jagd Verband unit & not Jager Verband as I thought the abbreviation meant or Jaeger Verbanol as it looked like.This is what the man had to say on Erwin Kuther.

Very interesting history. Thanks for posting.

Hi, it has been a few weeks but I have persuaded a work colleague who has proper photo equipment to take detailed shots of the dagger & the Erwin Kuther engraving on the lower cross guard. I will email the photos as they are over the memory limit. On the historical side of the dagger the man (Martin) who found out about the Jagd Verband has emailed me a photo of one of Kuther's men from his SD unit in Lublin (Poland) in winter 1942.

A special dagger to be sure, beautifull dagger... posting more picsfor Sharpe...

Engraving

Closeup

Crossguards

Tang forge mark

Link stamping

You can kill me, but the name looks clearly like Rüther, not Küther, even if an evidence for Herr Küther does exist.

First of all thankyou to Red Baron for putting in all the photos in this whole article, bar 1. I am very grateful to you. If you look at the closeup of the writing it is partly worn on the Erwin end, especialy the E, due to this part rubbing against the uniform when in use. As for the name Ruther you could go all the way & say that the E in Erwin looks like a G. I think Robert McDivitt who did the initial research can read this type of writing.

With this forum, I now feel the need to prove 777 wrong, so as not to be seen as someone who is researching the wrong man. So I have emailed various dealers/researchers who deal with German militaria. The first to reply was from the Helmut Weitze company (I think most people would see them & Detlev Niemann as the best to ask), who agreed with me that the name is Kuther & not Ruther. See attachment & I hope it works! When I get the others I will post them.

777 feels convinced

Without a doubt that is a "K" as seen used in many of the early DL's.

Thankyou for your support JR, since 777 & hopefuly anyone else who thought the name was Ruther, is now convinced it is in fact Erwin Kuther, I will not bore anyone with further evidence from dealers/researchers backing up the Kuther name.