UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Edged Weapons Accoutrements Forum Mystery hangers

Can anyone out there post a good photo of Railway-Water Protection Police hangers or Water Customs hangers? I think I've come across a set but all I can find are black and white photos or artists renditions. The hangers appear very similar, and I could use some color shots to sort it out.

Here's a set I picked up off Ebay for $35-45.00 a few years ago. The black dye was still visable underneath the slides & buckles. The dagger itself is extremely rare making the market for these hangers very limited. I eventually sold them and have no idea of where they are today.

Here is another hanger set for RWWP.

Forgot to mention, the Water Customs hangers are dark blue cloth with velvet backing.

After viewing the RWPP hangers I'm leaning more towards Water Customs. I'm not sure how well the picture is.

pic 2

pic 3

What you have here is a 1919 model Navy dagger. The hangers could be Water Protection or Water Customs, but they could also be postwar. It would take a closer picture of the buckles to be sure.

Since I was on the accoutrement forum I was trying to limit my questions to the hangers. I'll get better pictures of the buckles and repost. But since you opened up the other can of worms... I was unsure about the dagger and scabbard. TJ shows a similar dagger in his accoutrement book calling it a 1919 naval cadet dirk. The scabbard pictured is different than in my picture. Are the 1919 model Navy dagger and 1919 navel cadet dirk one and the same? If not, perhaps that would explain the different scabbards. If so, perhaps the scabbard pictured in the book is a deluxe version? Another interesting item is the crossguard. Fouled anchor on the obverse, diamond on the reverse. According to Wittman, only Alcoso produced this type of crossguard. Blade hallmark is Paul Weyersberg. Hmmm...

Gelb 14, welcome to the forum.
As the hangers are offered with the dagger, imo these should not be parted out totally concerning periodness of the items.
The pics are very very bad. IF the dagger has a leather covered grip (blue , darkblue or some shade turned to black), I have to contradict mvogel as it COULD be a Waterprotectionpolice dagger (NOT to be confused with the Railwaywaterprotectionpolicedagger)!
It is said that the WPP daggers came with AND WITHOUT a grip-police-emblem.
Generally this configuration of "flaming ball", "figure of eight" scabbard bands and blueblack leather covered grip would be proper for a WPP dagger.
Nevertheless I have much suspicion on the dagger as an ALCOSO crossguard on a WEYERSBERG dagger ???? TTW has several WEYERSBERGs in his book and what I could see all have NOT the ALCOSO crossguard. I also cannot remember having seen any of this certain configuration myself.
Finally the scabbard bands have an odd look to me: instead of soldered on they have the "red flag look" of pressed out BUT perhaps this is only due to the bad pic. Also this certain kind of knot (kind of "fgure of eight")looks quite different to all I have seen in real or in TTWs book.
Now let us come to the hangers: In these bad pics I cannot determine if it is blueblack ribbon or black leather. In no way these are the proper hangers for a WPP dagger (they came textbook with a gold brocade hanger with blue edge and a blue stripe on each side; and it is said that they could also be worn with "normal" navy hangers). So whatever these hangers are, they are for sure NOT for this kind of dagger. Therefore a put together combination and therefore for me also highly suspicious and very carefully to be examined.

Wotan,
Thanks for the welcome. You are correct that the hangers should not be considered with the dagger. My mistake for photographing them together. Until I can get better pictures of the hanger, this description will have to do. The obverse of the hanger consists of dark blue/black ribbon over a very faded blue or more likely purple velvet. About 1/16" of the purple velvet shows on the outside of the ribbon. The reverse is simply a faded blue/purple velvet. Gold gilt oval buckles with oak leafs. I believe that M Vogel has the dagger correct.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. My thoughts have been that if the grouping is offered together it also SHOULD be looked at in a certain connex.
If the hanger consist of ribbon an not leather they shall appear as watercustom hangers. But they would request arcanthus leaves instead of oak leaves on the fittings (cannot be determined in these pics).
I already have seen several watercustom hangers but up to now have not see any with such a top fitting...
As said, very careful and exprienced examination would be necessary.

I post this solely so others may feel my pain as I try to research the Water Customs hangers...
Robin Lumsden - Edged Weapons Of Hitler's Germany " the dagger was hung from black watered silk and velvet straps with gilt buckles"
Tom Johnson & Wilfrid Bradach - Third Reich Edged Weapon Accouterments " Double strap, detachable fabric hanger made of dark-blue moire facing sewn to dark-blue velvet backs. The hanger buckles are oval and bear a dull-gilt oakleaf design. A silver and blue fabric dress hanger has been attributed to the Water Customs but to date remains unconfirmed "
Tom Johnson - Collecting The Edged Weapons Of The Third Reich Vol.1 3rd Edition " Hanger - a double strap, detachable fabric hanger constructed of black moire facing sewn to black velvet backs. Hanger buckels are oval and bear a dull gilt oak leaf design "
My complexion is beginning to look dull gilt, woe is me.

Gelb 14, the real, original watercustom hangers I have seen have been very exclusive. The obverse has been a material like on navy hangers but distinctively smaller as those (I think navy hanger material sometimes is used to fake such hangers). Back is the same velvetlike material as navy. Color of top may vary from very dark blue to almost black and the same goes for the back. The top fittings of the original hangers I have seen were all the kind of see TTW´s army book, pg 215, 216 ("closd box type with smooth surfaces). The buckles and the slides had the distinct arcanthus leaf (instead of oak leaf like armies). The clips have been the TTW-pg-215-right type (push-in variety with square corners and pebbled finish).
The metal parts were all gilded.
There are hangers which are referred to be water custom hangers and do have the "army" oak leaf (have also seen a doubtless original land custom hanger this way). I have seen few that were convincing. Never say never on those things but personally I would not like to have them in my collection.