UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons HJ Edged Weapons Forum White diamond HJ

Anyone ever seen one? I have a Kuno Ritter and the diamond is White reather than red and white. The swaz is black. I know many think the only correct diamond is red and white but I have seen and believe in some blue ones. This is the first white one I have ever seen and the grips are unplayed with. Straight from a veteran of WWII in 1997 but that isn't to say he brought it back because I have been told some wild things. I have also been bitten by the gentlemanly old veteran who was a con man-being in the service doesn't change your stipes if you don't want them changed I sadly learned. Russ

Yes, I have heard of the blue diamond as well. There was a thread here debating the existance of the "marine HJ" a while ago. As I remember someone claimed to have a period color photo of a blue diamond HJ in wear, but I do not think the pic. was posted, but I may be mistaken.
Anyway the white diamond sounds very interesting, can we see some pics???

Tom Wittmann had a Marine HJ knife on his site a while ago, it had the BLUE diamond Sold for around $2000 if I remember correctly.

soon seen also in green

and in blue

HJ related items are not one of my specialties. My understanding is that the standard (red/white with a black swastika) HJ emblem was basic issue for HJ uniforms. And if I understand the thinking behind the idea correctly, it’s that there was a “branch distinction" (for lack of a better term) using a different colored blue/white emblem for the “Marine-HJ”. If that was the case would there not also be matching same color cap pins and armbands with blue/white HJ emblems?

And taking it a step further. If they did that for the Marine-HJ. Were uniform accessory color distinctions also given to the Flieger-HJ and Motor-HJ? FP

IMO-NO exotic colors are period. They were never around until the repro pins came out a few years ago. Wishing don't make it so. An Xray will tell the tale-the prongs will be wrong-if they even have them.

A very interesting observation from Houston as regards reproduction emblems and X-Rays. I don’t know what the mounting pin configurations are on any of the different colored emblem HJ knives that were cited. But recently had an opportunity to look at some X-Rays of some examples of: HJ bayonets, “DJ” knives with emblems in the grips, and as I recall one questionable HJ knife. What I saw were the HJ hat type of pin configuration emblems that were partially cut off, full length pins that were spread outward, spread inward, and one where I wasn’t quite sure just how it was configured. Along with some examples were the pins were either missing or very short stubs.

Not too surprising as I think at least one major dealer currently has grip rivets for sale and there are other sources as well. And from a practical standpoint - there is nothing to prevent grips from being removed and reinstalled, or replaced completely by someone who has some kind of ability or training repairing small items especially with the assistance of some commonly available equipment.

On a somewhat related side issue: While I have seen glued emblems, I have never seen an X-Ray of a “DJ” knife scabbard with an emblem that passed the “wiggle” test. And am wondering if it would be as instructive as the examples I mentioned above? Does anyone have X-Rays of the scabbards with attached HJ emblems?? FP

Would it be possible for someone to post x-ray pics. of a correct and incorrect HJ emblem? I have heard of this method for detecting incorrect insignia prongs, but have never seen it. Thanks in advance.

A long time ago I started a thread stating my opinion that all or the vast majority of the "DJ" knives with scabbard emblems had been modified with this feature AFTER initial manufacture. When? Who knows-but if one is objective it can be readily seen with a quick look. The rivet at the front top of the scabbard has had its head ground off and removed so that the front spring can be removed and the prongs bent over. There is usually a dab of newer paint over the little grind marks. This is not a professional job. I very strongly suspect the emblems are hat emblems.

Also the DJ knives with the grip emblems appeared in the hands "of those certain dealers" about 30 years ago. They were highly suspect then but have been accepted by many over the years. IMO they still are HIGHLY suspect and very well may have the hat emblems rather than the correct HJ grip emblems. The prongs are quite different.

Every thing Houston has stated here is correct, EXCEPT that I have bought SEVERAL original small DJ/HJ Knives directly from veterans who brought them back from Germany at the END of the war (not during the occupation).
All were mint and some had several (liberated from stores in Germany-Solingen).
Did these exist in the period - yes.
Are some on the market today fakes - yes. Just as Houston describes.
Do any original HJ knives had different colored HJ diamonds from the period - IMO No.
I have never found an HJ Knife with a diamond variation from a veteran nor do I know of anyone who has.
JUST MY OPINION,
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

I don't question that Ron. My only question is-as you know- why the modification was accomplished in such a highly unprofessional manner. Any craftsman worth his salt would have used a new rivet. The only thing that makes sense to me is that these are unofficial modifications-perhaps period but NOT factory. Any half baked "mechanic" could accomplish the same thing in about 15 minutes--it could even be done neatly with a new rivet in the same time. So-unless you KNOW where it came from???????????? Is it worth the extra premium price???????????? IMO--It is not. How many are "period" and how many were altered yesterday? No way to tell IMO.

Houston, as you know, wartime does strange things to those under the gun. I believe that these were in stock and were modified due to wartime shortages.
We know that some daggers and other blades were continued to be made available after 1942. I have NPEA original Waffenleite documents showing daggers were issued after 1942 and even as late as 1944 that will be in my updated NPEA book, so I am sure that some blades continued to be assembled.
I wonder if we ever will know exactly what happened, but I am sure these were a Solingen product.
Ron

As a side note concerning HJ knives. I have heard that the diamond should be a-symetirc to the diamond pattern of the grip. However in the pic. above of the blue "HJ marine knife" insignia, it appears very symetrical. Is symetry always a bad sign???

First, To start the ball rolling in response to Johnny V’s request for pictures: Posted below is an image and link from an earlier GDC discussion showing an "Olympics Version" of the DJ knife with wide stance prongs spread outward.


Olympics DJ Thread


I don't disagree that a stockpile of generic brand new early period** small hiking knives could have been acquired and issued to some element of the Hitler Youth at some point either early or late in the history of the Third Reich. Judging from the numbers seen (with and w/o emblems) it must have been a fairly large stockpile of unsold knives. However to date I haven’t seen a period catalog, photos, or documentation etc. showing them with or w/o emblems - which is one of the reasons why I imagine the topic is still in play. And as was suggested, it’s always a possibility that some small shop did conversions adding HJ emblems to some of the scabbards while leaving others untouched. ** (Reason: No RZM, utilizes an aluminum not zinc hilt)

I would really have liked to have had a chance to closely examine the veteran acquired “DJ” knives that Ron mentioned. And better yet, also had the hindsight to have them X-Rayed to see how the emblems were attached to the scabbard bodies. So much for impossibilities. (At that time who knew what kind of discussions would spring forth regarding some seemingly small details??)

Aside from all of the other issues that come up when these knives are discussed something that has bothered me since the first time I saw one is this: A long time back I had a really tough time finding a fairly decent standard HJ knife that hadn’t seen a lot of hard use. And a lot of them had seen really hard use. With that background and understanding of the role of the small knives as supposed to be some kind of a youth knife: What kind of an individual made the decision to mount an HJ emblem on the side of the scabbard in such an exposed location? Where it could have very easily been defaced, damaged, or knocked off the first time the scabbard hit something hard?? (Appliqués are not uncommon with some hilts and grips. But with scabbards it’s not something the Germans normally did.)

I don’t myself have an answer as to for who or when they were made. But in the meantime would like to see some scabbard X-Rays if possible. To see what if any patterns show up. And maybe a catalog or two. To see what the Germans called them if any such period references exist. Or perhaps even a later catalog inasmuch as ‘sanitized’ HJ clones were still in production after the war being a continuation of an earlier product line, which could also provide a clue or place to look. Regards to All, FP

Frogprinze, I DO still have two of the original, veteran purchased DJ Knives in my collection. One is shown on the back cover and inside my NPEA Daggers And Associated Knives book.
Also, the other one will be at the SOS with me. Those who want to examine it can ask.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria
PS: The xray above is unlike any original that I have seen. The prongs come together and pass through and then spread out in all the ones I have seen.

Ron, Thank you for your offer to personally share your knives. It speaks well to your character by approaching a sometimes controversial topic head on instead of backing away. And gives me another good reason to attend the SOS as I have been interested in the topic myself for a much longer time than I had originally anticipated. My being able to go there at the moment is still up in the air due to family matters. But that should be resolved by early next week.

If I understand it correctly, the two knives you have exhibit modifications (I’m assuming) with some kind of indication that the rivets were possibly replaced? That unused stocks of various items were in existence prior to Germany’s surrender is not in question. Bill Shea for example has at least one “DJ” (aka BDM) knife w/o the emblem where the GI told him that he had brought back a whole box of them (50+(?). And that the GI “had been using one each year since 1945”, which does suggest that some things were available in quantity. And that the GI he mentioned had the time, opportunity, and ability to find and bring back souvenirs in bulk. There was no indication of his unit, but as we know not everybody or every unit came home immediately. With some being shipped out for a final assault on Japan. And others being stationed in Germany for varying periods of time before returning to the U.S.

As for the X Ray I posted that was my point. That while it has prongs, it does not look like a regular HJ knife. What I am interested in with the scabbard mounted emblems is the pin configuration inside the scabbard body itself - which should show up on an X Ray. I can visualize how to do it now, and am interested in how the the Germans might have done it. Thanks again for your generous offer, FP

there is a blue diamond hj on ebay right now.......

with scabbard

Do you think the blue diamond HJ on ebay is the real deal or a fake? after reading all the posts I still can't get a concensus. DGP42

DGP-
You cannot get a concensus because there is no concensus. A few people believe that the non-standard colored HJ diamonds are OK, most people believe that they are post-war fantasy pieces, dressed up to make a few extra $s. I am too inexperienced to have an opinion either way. When it comes to pieces like this (olympic DJ's , etc.) when you buy you are placing a bet with your $$$. You just have to be confortable with the odds....

The FACT is that these exotic colors did not appear until the repro pins appeared just a few years ago. Not really hard to come to a conclusion here--is it? Are we wishing again?

Yes we probably are wishing,
But asside from that wish, I am also wishing to see the white diamond that started this thread!

X-ray is the answer to a lot of this speculation.

I cannot speak for HJ as I only have 2, but with the early SA daggers it has saved me a bunch of money. I have been sent several "pointy wing" SA daggers that were reworked or newly made grips ... with lapel stickpins insets. I took them to the local X-ray guy and what an eye-opener.

Dave

Have to agree with Houston, Back in the 70,s I used to see rows of hj's for sale at big fleamarkets and not a one had anything but white and red! Kevin.