UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Miscellaneous Dagger Forum Water Protection

Hi All,
Craig's post with the Navy that had Pressed Scabbard Rings inspired me to share this dagger.
I picked this up about 4 years ago along with a very large and old collection. I purchased it from the Son of a German vet that passed away the previous year and had collected since the war. The son had no interest in collecting at all. - Lucky for me.
This dagger, along with most of the daggers he had were in his colection since at least the 1950's. ( He had photographic proof of his dad with the daggers on the wall behind him )
Anyway - about the dagger.
It has a very early Eickhorn Blade, Nice early fittings and a Late Scabbard with Pressed bands. Everything on the dagger is in mint condition and the patina matches on everything. The fit is great, but the Scabbard has Pressed Pressed Bands and is also non magnetic.
The other problem is that the Blade is so early.
Could this be put together by Eickhorn toward the end of the war from parts?? Or is is a parts dagger sold to the GI's just after the war, or even an Atwood piece??
Looking forward to your opinions.
Regards,
Scott

next pic

Handle components

handle

tang

Early Eickhorn Stamped

Sabbard Rings

Scabbard tip

throat

neat dagger, thanks for sharing!

Sorry to tell you but they were sold just like this in the 60's by Eickhorn with the early 33 type TM stamp. They were not parts daggers but made entirely in the 60's. The quality of the blade was IMO even better than the war time pieces-the TM very deep. The flaws were the non period type scabbard with the pressed out bands and with sword type ring suspension fittings and failure to finish the pommel on the sides where the castings seams present a break in the design. Another thing is that they don't have the Eickhorn type thin brownish felt buffer. On period pieces the pommel flaws were hand corrected. Many of these 33 TM type blades were put in period Navy mounts or a dagger with corrected pommels or the pommels were changed to period pommels. In a proper mount these blades are impossible to detect except that they are new like and, as I said, really better than the period ones. Many are in collections today-the owners unaware of this fact. Most Eickhorn Navy repros will have the etched inverted TM but--there were also some of these. I know many will be unhappy to hear this but--I was there--and that's the rest of the story.

Wooow Houston, that's pretty big news to me...........and to many for us !

You've got to love this site . . . I think I learn something new here just about every day! Thank you Houston, I think I've fondled my Water Protection dagger countless times and I'd always assumed that the felt buffer had been red, like the navy daggers, and gone dark from oil or silicone. As soon as I read your post Houston I got the blade out again to have a closer look and sure enough the buffer is brown! Thank you again! ~ Ian

Eickhorn WWII era Navy daggers will almost always have the brown buffer also. WKC used red.

Thanks for the Info Houston!
Were these made before that? I did manage to get some photo's from the Vets son of his Fathers collection when I purchsed it.
His dad must have taken them for insurance reasons. The photos are dated, and the newest one is dated 1961. 3 of them show this dagger which means the he got it at the very latest 1961, but more likely in the late 50's.
Regards,
Scott

I second the idea you have got to love this site.

Just an observation, This stamp is also used on the Dutch AF Officers daggers made by Eichorn in the 1960's.

Jim

These 33 types could have been made in the late 50's--I don't know the exact date. Perhaps only a few were made and they switched over to the inverted etched 35-41 type TM for some reason.

Houston....

Write a book for us footsloggers....this info is good for all of us.....

I'm just glad I got it for next to nothing and didn't shell out big bucks for it. It's such a beautiful piece with a screamer of a blade that I also don't mind having it in my collection next to the genuine pieces.
Thanks for the info!

I am not going to reveal my secret about identifying period Water Protection Daggers, but I can confidently tell you that there is indeed a way that you can tell Eickhorn produced Water Protection Police Daggers from regular naval Eickhorn daggers and post war Eickhorn naval products. This applies to both those with eagle grips and plain grips as it has nothing to do with the grip.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Scott, A beautiful dagger and an interesting thread. I noticed you have verdigris on your dagger handle leather. That green greasy stuff that forms from contact with brass. I reccomend you get it off. It is very caustic to leather and will burn it. I see many hundreds of German leather holsters over the course of a year in my work and verdegris is responsible for eating away the leather around brass studs constantly.It should wipe off with a cloth. Jerry Burney

Houston: Thanks for sharing your experience. Folks: Houston is one of the best, as he has a very good "institutional memory" to remember what was sold in the 60s and what was not.

Jerry,
Yes, I know the green stuff is bad news. I have kept it there just to show that the dagger has age to it.
You are right though, I should clean it off and I will do so.

I'm glad that I posted this piece on the forum. It's been bugging me since I got it as to what the deal with it is.
I have learned more than I thought I would.
Regards,
Scott

Ron, thought that was the idea of this site " to share information and Help others..." at least thats what the cover page states???
Would help members in any future purchases.

I am more than willing to help. I think you will find that I am one of the FEW remaining contributers who have remained active, even in the face of critiques that were less than fair.
Next, I have offered the collectors on this site discounts on my reference publicattions and shared information as need.
This being said, there are some things that are not going to be released by me until it appears in my or someone else's reference book on these topics. You all must remember: REFERENCE BOOKS COME BEFORE ANYTHING ON THIS SITE. Too many false opinions, poor intrepretation and bad information can seep into our collecting community and the books MUST BE the first source of correct information BEFORE coming here for varification.
JMO,
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Ron--What are you saying here? Lots of correct information is discovered before it ever goes into a book.
We don't ( I hope ) use books as an ultimate answer.
There are lots of mistakes in books -there are also a lot of incorrect opinions voiced here on a daily basis
IMO We SHOULD read not to accept or deny but to consider-- both in this forum and the books. Right?
I can understand someone holding back info if they were going to write a book about it--Are you planning a book on the WPP or reproductions/parts pieces?? If not--why hold this back. In fact ,to your VERY great credit IMO, you have told other things in the past--why not this?
What am I missing here? Also, if you did not intend to tell -why say you know? Ca,mon just give it up-inquiring minds want to know That's why we're here.

Houston, what I am saying here is to use the books as the basis for your education on TR Daggers. Just as you and I did, we founded much of our information on books first and came to this site with that information to build on. I don't feel we can not use the books and rely just on these sites for information.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

I agree but WHEN, if ever, would something like this ever appear in a book? why wait? We ain't getting any younger here!!

Ron,

If you did not want to give any details, then why did you post something like that ?

Dave

Dave, let's see: I guess it would be best if I just said its good and not tell everyone that I have a good reason for claiming it good so they would think I was just blowing off steam and giving an uneducated opinion, right Dave??
Well, maybe I should just not post anything any more cause I never have any basis for my opinions that I can't give away and stop writing reference books that we don't need anymore, right?
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Huhhhh ??

Houston- Thanks for the good info. man! I sometimes just search your posts in order to LEARN.
THANKS for the contributions!
Johnny

WM- Just a question how the heck do you get two oak leaves on your rank with only 42 posts??? You should have 500-750...
Just curious......

Mike changed Internet suppliers and had to re-register but, as I remember, forgot a password and had to start new with 0 posts. As a courtesy I closed his old account and transfered his rank.

Dave

Ah, thanks Dave! That just caught my eye and I was curious. Heck, I was hoping there was some trick to it so I could rack up the rank!
Good hunting,
Johnny

Guess we have to wait for the book and pay for the knowledge Its out with "sharing information and helping others" - need to change the cover page -

If you really want to know more about the WPP dagger you will find several photos and several different variations in Tom Johnson's new table top series of books. Just looking at those photos will teach you a lot--and then there's the photo of an Officer wearing the NSKK chained Honor Dagger-you can see the detail of the top clip-clear as a bell--You don't want to miss that do you? Buy one today. Support our authors. Buy it from Tom. It's his book. He made the effort, not just to make money but for you and me and the hobby.
Tell him you got the suggestion to buy it on GDC. Maybe he will come on here and tell us some new interesting thing--or things.

Houston, thanks but we are missing the point, I have TJ,s,Angolias,even Atwoods + some books - all great and very helpful. It was the statement that he had some specific info in his reply so why not share - lots of others do to include you which is much appreciated and I guess represents the foundation of this site.

Will so be it-

See my post in the GDC Community Center. Although I am no author perhaps it will help to see things from the author's perspective.

To Ron,

While I can appreciate that you won't just outright share with us your secret to identifying period Eickhorn produced Water Protection Daggers from regular and post war Eickhorn naval daggers, perhaps you would consider pointing us/me in the right direction. Or, make it a test, a lesson, a learning experience? The WPP is an area of some personal interest to me and I would love to be able to write a detailed text on them for future generations of collectors and to use the valued knowledge of any collector, to prevent that knowledge from perhaps being lost.

Thanks in advance!

Regards,
~ Ian

Alright boys, you all have laid a bunch of guilt on me for not sharing my knowlege on these WPP Eickhorn Daggers with you, so I am going to give you a BIG HINT: For those of you with an original Eickhorn catalog and an original Eickhorn navy, compare Eickhorn WPP Daggers with regular Eickhorn Navy Daggers and look for the little, but definite difference on the dagger.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Well Ron, I have and original Eickhorn Kunderendienst Catalog and an Eickhorn WWP dagger and three WKC Navy daggers, but I guess I'll just have to pick me up a regular Eickhorn Navy dagger if I'm going to make this study complete! Thanks Ron . . . one more dagger I'm going to have to go looking for! ~ Ian

I have two available!
Ron Weinand

Here is a target to discuss. I got this in an entire collection awhile back. Had to take the whole thing even thu I didn't completely like this WPP. I really am only comfortable with Alcoso WPP's. My views are these:

- The pommel, crossguards and scabbard are Eick. The blade and all were once a WPP. The grip wire and eagle make me nervous which is why it has been laying in the "I don't want to deal with this box" for a long time.

3 photos in seperate replies. Would love to hear comments from Ron and others. Thanks.

photo 2

last photo

Not good in my opinion.
Ron

Thanks for the viewing and comments. Are the Eick. WPP typically an "open" wreath emblem?

It isn't the grip emblem that is the problem.
Ron Weinand

Ron,

Tell us about the crossguard please.

Dave

I do not want to pry too hard as I know that some details would like to be kept close but I would like to ask:

Is the site opinion that the grip emblem is an Eick. WPP type?

I have never seen that type of grip wire on an Eick. naval type piece so that is a major negative to me.

Thanks.

I agree about the wire. Probably -no factory applied this wire IMO. But--IMO all the grip emblems were privately applied-maybe by a factory-maybe not. The reason I say this is that no two seem to be alike so the wire could have been added during the period too. Also-I know of no factory offering these grip emblems-- but they were used.
It is also my opinion that many of these daggers were made up during the period from Navy daggers and also post war. That makes things very difficult.
Policemen for the most part did not make that much money.
I know Ron has a theory about a rather IMO minor difference between the Eickhorn Navies and these but I am not sure. I need to look at several in hand to see if I agree.

In some of my old factory Eickhorn documents I have found companies as early as 1952-54 asking to have 3 reich daggers made. Pressed scabbard bands were never period...

Sorry-not true. Late Eickhorn steel scabbards have pressed bands. Some even have internal steel springs like an Army dagger and hilt fittings that are plated pot metal. These sometimes are thought to be the Administrative Navy dagger because the plate is thin and often wears off to reveal a silver color ( steel and pot metal).

Sorry. I forgot about the steel.....(I have owned a few) I should have said brass scabbards.

If anyone is interested, I am going to bring my Post War WPP to the MAX. I will be there From Wed night to Sat night and would be happy to show it to anyone interested.
Just send me a PM
Best,
Scott