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Krause Offline OP
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As Pat said, I agree that the dagger itself is authentic. If anything is bad, it would have to be the inscription. The motto is too good to be one of those complete fake blades I have seen. The things that keep nagging me are the maker mark, and lack of tang markings as found on the other similar-period Packs. The blade appears to be correct, why are there no tang markings? Also, the hammer in the maker mark is outlined and pointed, not etched out. I know it is hard to see in the poor pictures. Also, the knee with 2 lines theory.... Left knee (looking straight at the mark) does have the distinct 2 lines. No sash hanging between the legs though. Could the maker mark AND etch be post war? If anything, I would have to assume this, and the tang markings might have been ground off if they would point at another maker. ALso, might this actually be originally a ground Rohm, not just a plain SA, where the Rohm inscription AND maker mark was re-applied? One of the two options. I wish I had the precision tools to measure the blade thickness to verify this. Also, the inscription that droops lower on the blade, below the spine. I know this in itself is not a killer, but it does add to the mystery. I can't wait to get the verdict!

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What is it about the Pack SA maker that makes it so prone to fake Rohm inscriptions? Or is it that Pack is a common maker & was used to make some well-known fakes?

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Krause Offline OP
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I am still waiting for a definitive answer on the dagger from an expert. He received and looked at it briefly, and feels good about it so far, but further scrutiny is required to be sure, and time will not allow that until he returns from a trip. From what I have read and heard, I think the Packs have such a bad name for the reasons BrianK mentions. Very common maker, many well-known fakes are floating around bearing this maker's mark. We now know for sure, the dagger is a genuine Pack SA dagger. Is the inscription post-war? I can't wait to find out!

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Same advise for you, Krause: I hope your expert is not "connected", otherwise get at least one other "neutral" opinion as well.

Best regards,

Herman


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Krause Offline OP
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As an update to this thread: I have received information that verifies that this particular piece DOES have an original Rohm inscription, and is 100% original. Big Grin The expert that did the certification is not connected to the source that I received this dagger from. I am always interested in hearing any and all opinions though. I am a bit sick and tired of all the worrying and wondering on these Rohms. I am seriously thinking about getting rid of this piece, even though I know it is good now. It is like a cancer! It is such a shame that the vast number of fakes out there, ruin it for the real ones (Packs anyway). Do the big number of fake Rolex watches out there make the value of real ones lower? No. Do the fakes hurt sales of real ones? maybe a little. I have seen the real good fake Rolex watches, and they cost 1/4 the price of a real one, not the $60 on a corner in NY ones. Damn, I thought I would be happier after getting a positive result on this dagger! Confused

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Krause,

The most important thing is that you are happy with it.
There are many fakes out there and if you are lucky enought to get the "real thing", then consider yourself fortunate.
I would be more than happy to own such a piece.
I honestly thought that the dagger was 100% geniune but didn't feel "confortable" with the inscription as there are minute differences with the one I've seen.
However, Eickhorn and Pack were the biggest producers of these Rohm blades and perhaps it is normal to have some minute differences.
It is much easier to call it fake, when there are obvious red flags.
Other than that, a hand inspection is the only way to go, if a blade is real or not.
I'm glad this one turned out alright as I was afraid that this could've been the "perfect fake" that everyone is talking about.
Just kidding !
Big Grin

Krause, would it be possible to know who was the person who authenticated your dagger ?

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"ANYTHING GOES IN HEAVEN"(:}X


"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to relive it" Santayana
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Krause Offline OP
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Pat-

Thanks for your post. It just still somewhat bothers me to own such a piece when there is so much controversy surrounding it. I decided to have Craig (Gottlieb) authenticate it, since he has a lot of experience with the Pack Rohms, and owns one that he uses for comparison (known to be good for sure, 100%). He did a certificate for it and everything. Also, another dealer (not connected to Craig) that handled it at one point, had several expert opinions on it at the Max show. That is just verbal though, Craig put it in writing. I think some of my earlier pictures of this piece were so bad that one could not really tell. Also, being that the piece is not as "minty" as a lot of them out there, it is even harder to see the inscription. The inscription does definitely sag a little lower on the blade than some. I know it has been established that this in itself is not an indicator of a fake. Still, this one is very interesting Roll Eyes Different issues here than the dagger being discussed in the other thread titled "Full Rohm EPack"

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Krause,

Glad to hear its a good one...

Its a pity "Someone" made some good PACK fakes some years ago.

Everytime i pick one up its almost instinct to be suspect. I've passed on a couple i believed to be good.. as i didnt want a question mark hanging over it , especially if i wanted to sell on.

So i waited for a while for an F.Dick as the logo is also different on the Rohm version and its also a bit scarcer Big Grin

Long wait, but worth it..

Mark


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If Craig said that it is original, then don't worry about it and keep it.
You'll have no problems selling it in the future if you have one of Craig's COA.
This is a first for me though as I have never seen a Rohm inscription not being in a straight line.
I guess, even German craftmen were not always perfect. Wink

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I agree with Pat. I also have never seen a Rohm
inscription that was not in a straight line.
These were dedication daggers. They were special
at the time of issue. It could be original, but
most likely a reject. However, in my opinion, this
dagger would not constitute as a "Keeper". There
will always be doubt surrounding the inscription. You want "textbook" when it comes
to Rohm dedication daggers.
If this was to be your only full Rohm, I would pass on it. Unless you got it on the cheap and
want to upgrade later. COA's don't mean a lot for me. But that's me. I've seen too many that have turned out wrong. Or maybe I should say it
another way. I put more trust in the German
Quality Control Inspector on early dedication
daggers then on a COA from a dealer today. Sorry
guys (dealers).
If Craig is right, and he maybe. But in my opinion that blade is at best a original REJECT!
If I came across this item, It would have to be
Cheeep. But after many years I have learned to
pass on these "questionable variations".
My 2 cent worth....
-wagner-

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First of all, I wouldn't necessarily say that just because I like something, it is no longer open to debate. This was a tough call for me, but in my view, here were the factors that contributed to my opinion:

1) The entire dagger is Pack parts - crossguards, scabbard, and grip - all of these exhibit very unique features that only Packs have.

2) The inscription, though crooked, matches letter for letter, with my original, which I acquired from my neighbor when I was a child.

The only significant anomaly was that the inscription was indeed crooked. However, on Packs particularly, I have seen this feature several times before. Also, I have seen differences with respect to spacing between the inscription and the trademark, and the trademark and the crossguard. This piece was witin tolerances.

In my view, there was enough "good" about this piece to outweigh the crooked placement of the inscription.


Craig Gottlieb
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www.cgmauctions.com
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And what about the missing tang markings typically to Pack Röhm blades?

Herman


You never have enough HJ-knifes!
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Herr Mann... I'm sure that the missing tang marks
are also acceptable within the "tolerance breath
of Pack Rohms". Especially those with the crooked
dedication variation. Maybe we'll see that one in
a book one day.
Zorro, your right!
"EVERYTHING IS GOOD IN HEAVEN"
-wagner-

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Krause Offline OP
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Thanks for chiming in Craig. Sorry I dragged your name into this, but I think it definitely brought some additional credibility to this thread.

Pat's earlier assessment also helps this case. "might be the perfect fake" Meaning that the inscription (if fake) is damn good. Now that the dagger has stood next to a known real one, as well as been fully inspected by someone with a lot of experience in the area, I do feel better about it. Still, I can't help but to wonder why I would keep this dagger when I could put my money into something less controversial. THough stressful, it has been a good learning experience for me, and I hope the same for others here as well. I had next to no experience with Rohm daggers before this. My best and favorite area is my minty (plain and ordinary) SA and SS pieces! Big Grin

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Krause,

Your are right about a piece that raises too many questions. I ran into the same problem recently with an early 70's Rolex Paul Newman cosmograph which is an extremely rare and sought after watch.It was straight out of a house that belonged to the original owner with the original box and reciept showing date of purchase and now closed jewelry store chain. The problem was the case # and the inside back #were not exact and that is unusual but Rolex did some things this way. I don't know why and neither could one of the biggest dealers in the usa. Also the movement had no serial# except the name rolex on one of the register bridges. Very unusual , but there again some slid thru and are still considered acceptable. This particular watch is probably worth 15,000 to 19,000 as it is.But may be a tough sell to a serious collector. Now the same watch properly marked and # is more like 30,000 to 40,000. I,m only using this example to compare with a situation like yours. In short, some will believe, others will not. Yes it is very frustrating at times.

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I liked Rolex when they were just a good watch.Now its like getting a FERRARI serviced.What type of lube,how often to have cleaned,proper crystal,cam timing,warming up,break in period,over winding,Nobody even cares if it keeps good time etc.There are a lot of similarities to this hobby.There was a time when "My uncle brought this back from the war" was good enough.(:}X Wink


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Krause Offline OP
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Ed-

I hear ya on the Rolex also! An old co-worker of mine owns one of those $1200 ETA-made Rolex replicas. It is the same model as I own (blue face 2-tone Sub). You can't tell them apart. Mine is real, $6200 in '2000 (1999 model, before the gold through clasp and the "swiss made mark, rather than swiss t<25). His movement is identical in appearance, solid 18k everywhere proper. Rolex markings inside case, as well as the serial number in the proper location. As good as that Rolex is, it is no surprise that the fake daggers are getting better!

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I,ll go one better than that.I just got off the phone with my buddy in Chicago and he informed me their is a guy in the orient mastering the case making of the Newman watch I mentioned earlier. My friend told me he is using his genuine as a REFERENCE piece. He has been buying the movements Rolex used in that watch and adding the proper #s along with Rolex on the movement. Also the guy has master dial (face) makers at his disposal. Basically he's saying he can do it all! Now that's scarry.

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As of this point in time I have not seen a trend that repro daggers are getting any better. On the contrary, they are getting worse and the last blades coming close to originals were the Reddick blades which are no longer available. I believe the reason is that the cost involved in reproducing hardware increases exponentially as you aproach perfection in likeness and quality of the oringinals. Considering there is a relatively small market compared to fake Rolex watches for which there is a universal global market, the chances of producing original quality daggers is slim.
Earlier reproductions were better because of the availability of period parts which have been used up over the years.

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Since we are on the subject of Rolex watches and the fact that there is an array of Rolex replicas involving extensive ranges in price and quality, seeing a person wearing a Rolex almost always raises the suspicion that he is wearing a fake. That particular realization could motivate a person to buy any of the other quality watches such as Omega, Tag Heuer, etc which don't lag in qualilty,accuracy and precision to an original Rolex. I know these watches are being replicated as well but they don't have the reputation of being faked like the Rolexes. And I'm absolutely certain that if I would wear a Rolex today someone would ask: Is it real?

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Very true Manfred. As my good buddy from germany used to say, Rolex is for those that think they have money and Patek Philippe is for those that have money!

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Ed: Ha Ha, how true.

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Well, there are certainly a lot of dealers then at the Max/SOS that think that they have money. Big Grin
Will have my Timex at the SOS show. Wink

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Patrice, your to much. Big Grin Big Grin But I gotta tell ya I wore a Timex only once in all the years I've been a watch and jewelry dealer and that's because I bought a very scarce 14k gold head and bracelet Timex electric at the time they were competeing with Bulova Accutron. Timex was allways known as a working mans watch that normally sold at $9.95 to $49.95.

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What I wanted to add here is that those that wear a fake Rolex only pretend to have money or they got boinkered big time. Big Grin

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Krause Offline OP
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If you know exactly what to look for, you can spot even the "best" fake ETA-made Rolex replicas. I spent a good deal of time comparing mine to the fake that guy I knew had, this was about 2 years ago. Only a Rolex dealer or enthusiast could spot it otherwise. I have heard many pawn shops have even been screwed with them. I just could not believe there were that good of fakes out there until I saw that one. I had seen the ones for sale in Mexico and on the street. They could not fool a 12-year-old. $1200 for a fake, why not just get the real thing then? Ebay is full of them! I bet someone gets screwed every day there. My sub keeps very good time, ALMOST as good as the fake (the fake keeps better time!). The ETA movement in the best fakes is actually better than the real Rolex movement, at least for keeping time. I believe the real movement lasts longer, and it more durable though. Funny as this Rohm thread has taken this turn, but it got me thinking about these watches again, and I did a little more looking at these on the internet. Try looking at www.perfectswiss.com SCARY!! How do they get away with this? Copyright infringement.....

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Hi Krause,a real rolex has a perpetual movement ,and the second hand sweeps round,the fake ones are quartz movement and the second hand ticks round, nats

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Just got back from China last week. They had Rolex's with the sweeping movement. They felt heavy like the real thing too. They were selling them for 300 Yuan, which is approximately USD$40.00.

I was happy to know that there was no copies made of my Raymond Weil nor my Gucci, however, I didn't want them to look at it for too long, cause the copies probably would have been there the next day... Big Grin

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Krause Offline OP
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My Rolex (real) has an identical movement (sweeping) as the good fake I saw. Some of the cheaper fakes "tick" with electric movement. These ETA-made watches have a self-winding perpetual movement just like the real thing. Actually, ETA makes the movements for Omega and some others (high end) I am told. Check out that website I posted, you will see the same thing I am talking about. Not the cheap asian-made ones, even some that have a sweeping movement. Actually they all (real and fake) tick, just very fast, so it looks like it is smooth. You can hear it "purr" if you put it to your ear. I love mine, but I hate the fact that there is one almost identical, and with real solid 18K gold, that cost 1/4 the price!

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Krause, your right about the time keeping on Rolex. They are built well but their strength lies in their cases and bracelets rather than their movements. In the mid to late 80's they went to a modified movement in the submariner and I got complaints from people telling me how it would lose anywhere from 2 to 5 minutes a week and I had to go in there and tweek the problem and then I would get them within 5 sec. a day. Now with an older watch this is very hard to do. My specialty is in restoring watches around 100 yrs. old. Yes , ETA is used in just about every major watch produced except for the in house makers such as Patek,IWC,LeCoultre,A Lange and a few others.These pieces are individually hand built and each piece is inspected meticulusly before it leaves the bench. Wasn't to long ago a $20 grand Cartier came in for service and it had one of the newer ETA movts.that was water damaged so I priced a new ETA movement and to my surprise was only $94 dollars! Talk about stupid money for some watches.But I've bought parts for Pateks and you'd think you were building a damn Ferrari!

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