UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Rohm Dagger Forum What do the Pack doubters say about this one?

I don't really have any concerns about this dagger, knowing some about where it came from. For comparason to the others here, I am posting some pictures. The dagger is not in minty shape, and the age shows even throughout. Some greying to the blade but no pitting. Still can see crossgrain in spots, so it was not very aggressively cleaned IMO. It does actually look much better than what one can see in my "bad lighting" pictures. What one would call an "affordable Rohm". Sorry the pictures are bad, I ran out of time, and need to get some with better lighting. Will put up more later. Any and all opinions appreciated. Thought this one would spark an interesting discussion.

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WOOOPPPS! Oh no, sorry. I did not mean to post the last picture. Grouse hunting picture got mixed in! Moderators, please remove. Thanks!

Done.

Thanks Rick, sorry about that.

My understanding is that the front and back inscriptions are done at the same time.If that is correct then the front inscription should be at an angle also.I do not like how the insription is not centered on the blade

Krause,

No one can say much of anything from those pictures. You need much much better shots.

Dave

Sorry about the very bad pictures. I will take some more very soon. I was out of town on family business the last few days, and had wanted to get some of the opinions here, especially after all the arguing about "fake inscriptions" with the Himmlers, etc. I know everyone thinks the Pack Rohms are mostly fake, but it is my understanding that Pack made a TON of them, and there are a LOT of good ones out there also. Mine was vouched for by a very well respected German dealer who said it came from a vet's family. Still, I would love to hear what the guys here have to say about it. Its not minty, but not as bad as it looks in the pictures. I just have to take the time to get the lighting right. Age is even, and the blade has some grey, but no pitting. Grip is awesome, scabbard not bad, matching patina. I have not owned it for too long, and paid a fair price for it.

I should have emailed Dave before I left as I drove across 1/2 the country on my recent trip. From Minneapolis/St Paul to Atlanta and then some in Florida. Drove through most of WI, IL, GA, TN, KY, basically the heart of the SE. Could have met Dave on the side of the highway for a drink and some dagger opinions. Fricking put over 2500 miles on my car!

Who was the German Dealer?

I have never seen a period Rohm that was "good",
where the dedication was not in a straight line.
Seen good blades that were not centered on the spline, but not ones were there was a droop in
the dedication. If this was a period blade, it would have been rejected, in my opinion.
By this alone, I would return it if it were mine. -Wagner-

Hi

Kay Winkler sold a dagger like this

I have seen some good Rohms (or at least so say the "experts") that have the dedication that is not ceneterd on the ridge, sagging a little low, so that alone is not a big concern to me. I took some better pictures but they are still not that great. It is not a "re-etch" from what I can tell. The rest of the dagger is totally correct, including all parts, including scabbard. I have not had the time to take it down and look at tang markings. There are characteristics in the maker mark that send mixed signals, good and bad. The lettering in the etch looks correct to me in comparisons so far. Still, I can't help but to wonder about this dagger.... I need to find the time to get the conditions right and get some really good ones. So for now, these will have to do.

Also, It seems like most to the fake Rohms I have seen pictures of seem to be "minty" or at least in a lot better blade condition than this dagger. I am not saying it is not entirely possible that someone could take a somewhat salty dagger and etch it to increase value, but it just seems like all these suspect ones are Exc++ or better when this one is just Exc. The blade looks a lot better in person. The pictures are terrible, it is bright and it is just light grey, not deep pitting like it would appear in the bad pictures.

just love how grey/moisture damage shows up black in pictures...

The "&" is the same hight as the rest of the letters in the EP&S, there is nothing dangling between the legs (hahaha) as seen in some of the EP&S marks.

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Rather than worrying about where the dagger came from, or how much it cost, I just wanted to get some opinions from the guys that have handled a lot of these Rohm daggers. I am just looking for some honest, fair feedback so I can decide whether or not I am going to get rid of this thing. Up until recently, I felt a lot better about this dagger, and was proud to own it because of its supposed rarity. I am about at the point that I would rather not own a "rare" or dedicated dagger because of all the doubt out there. At least with the common stuff, you know what you got! I could acquire several more nice non-Rohm SA daggers instead of owning this. I am surprised there was not more comment on this one. From reading some of the older threads, I notice people seem to have all kinds of opinions on Rohm daggers. Maybe nobody cares here since it is not "minty", or is it because it is an EP&S?

I'll go out on a limb here and say that the dedication has promise, but does require a physical inspection to be sure. However, please post photos of the scabbard fittings (both upper and lower) and I'll tell you if the scabbard, at least, is a Pack scabbard.

Here is a picture of one of them there Pack blades that someone gave me. Was suspected to be postwar but has the over 33mm bladewidth at the shoulder. The reason for the uncertainty was that the dedication was below the spine of the blade.

Thanks for the replies, I really appreciate it. I will post some pics of the scabbard after the weekend. I will be up at the lake home till then, and the dagger is at home base(3 hours away). It has early nickel fittings, meduim dented ball, slightly split. Anodizing thin in spots, little lacquer just at the fittings. Looks totally proper to me, but I am unaware of any extra characteristics that would identify it as a Pack scabbard. Would be very interested to see...

Krause,

I am not a "Röhm" expert, but what really worries me about this dagger, is that the blade appears to have been heavily polished without damaging the etch, which would make me believe it was added after the cleaning.
Just my opinion.

Best regards,

Herman

Krause, do you have a pic of the tang. all the early Packs I've owned have a raised "A" with a number on the tang. I have a Pack ground Rohm with an A1.

Also a good pic of the motto would help, Pack had a very distintive motto on their SAs. The scabbard looks right from the pic you show, the lower mounted scabbard screws are distictive on many early Pack daggers.

Red

Unfortunately I do not have the dagger here, it is at home. I will not be at home until Monday night, so I can't get any more pictures until then. I did very lightly clean just the blade with a little Simichrome, just to get the crap off of it. I still can see some faint crossgrain, especially on the motto side. The motto looks good. Little to no burnish remains though. I very briefly took it down when I lightly cleaned the blade. I can't believe I forgot to look for tang markings. Was in a hurry. What do you guys know about the maker mark as far as the & symbol and the hammer and the strap or whatever, that is sometimes seen between the legs? Hammer is pointed and outlined, not just fully etched in. No strap (or whatever) hanging between the legs. & symbol is same hight as the rest of the letters. Looks like there might be 2 lines on the left knee. The face (of the person w/hammer) does look different than some of the "known fakes" I have seen pictures of, meaning I think the face looks ok. Anybody have any thoughts on these factors? Sorry the pictures are so bad!

Hi Krause,this thread might help with the different E P & S maker marks,regards nats

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/477091573/m/9183094783

http://members.lycos.nl/stantheman/

Krause,

Red is right. I just checked the tang of my Pack ground Röhm it also has a raised "A in a circle" and a raised "1" on it.
I post a few pictures of what is left of the makersmark.

Best greetings,

Herman

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I took the dagger down. I can not make out any tang markings. Just some light "dings" about 1-2mm wide and pretty much round. Lower crossguard marked with a round dent about 1mm deep and 1-2mm wide, no other internal marks. It is group marked "Wm" externally, as is proper. The upper guard is marked with a large "H" and what appears to be a "U" or maybe "O" in a circle on the other side of the tang hole (mark is smaller than the stamped "H"). Wood grip is stamped "WKS", and I have seen that before, most recently on a type 1 chained SS I used to own. I will be posting pictures shortly.

tang

taken down

scabbard fitting close-up

motto

inscription

inscription 2. Sorry for all the pictures. I'll quit now

Though I'm not 100% certain and a hand inspection should be required, I believe that this Rohm inscription is fake.
The dagger in itself is genuine but the inscription was redone post war.
This has to be the best fake Rohm dagger that I have ever seen.
A true piece of art !
A physical inspection would definitively confirm if I'm wrong or right.
A very hard call !

Glad to hear your opinion! I have been back and forth on this one in my mind, and it is so frustrating! I finally gave in and mailed it to an expert for a complete evaluation. Waiting for the verdict... The source it came from originally, stated it is good, as well as states "the big experts looked at it and said it was good". This one is really goofy!

Please, let us know what the outcome is.
Good luck and hope it turns out alright.

Pat is right, if it is a fake etch, it is a damn good one.
Ofcourse I hope that it comes back with a "clean bill of health" from the inspection, but if not, perhaps we have an example of a near perfect fake for that "How good are the fakers getting?" thread that has been so heatedly debated...
Good luck Krause, I've got my fingers crossed for you!