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Joined: May 2002
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gentlemen,next up for discussion is this Luft tunic with HG cuffband,,,good or bad,,please tell us what is good or bad about this tunic,,thanks,,robert

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here is the tailors tag,,,

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Well, the first thing that stands out (and really, the only thing, with the lack of pics..) is the label.

It is from a known Third Reich (and postwar era) firm that produced garments for the Red Cross and other civil organizations..as noted by the tag line 'Zivil Uniformen'

That would raise an eyebrow with me..need better natural light shots and many more , with closeups

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hi Kursk,,,yeah when i saw that label a red flag went up in my mind also,,,maybe its good, it looks fine from the outside,i wasnt able to get more pics at the time,hopefully in the future the opportunity will present itself for a more detailed examination of the jacket,,,thanks,,,Robert

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Is it not unusual to see patch and slant pockets together on an NCOs tunic?
Also, I always steer away from top pockets that are not straight edge. I know there are some (few?) period photos that show other than straight, but non-straight is definitely post war imo.

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This is a cuff-titled NCO's tunic as I would expect to see one.

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Anything is possible, but I think that this is a DRK tunic with HG insignia added.

I would like to see some better(larger and clear) photos of the insignia.

I dont feel good about it at this point.

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m67 Offline
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Yes Paul anything is possible I disagree with your thought that this is a red Cross tunic with manipulated insignia. We may also remember the size of this tunic is nearly 43, and a custom made tailor tunic, it is not issue!

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back

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under collar

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tab
sorry small image I have limited space here on this forum to upload images

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m67 Offline
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yes this is the same tunic

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wool cuff title, no glow , while we are on the subject,, not one stitch on the entire tunic glows!

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eagle

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tab and strap

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under tab

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m67 Offline
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interior, make note that the rayon material under the pocket flaps is used at the entry to the inner pocket, while the inner pocket is heavy khki, and additional utility pocket is found in blue-grey fabric inside the main pocket, as for small intruments or pens, three types of fabric used in the upper inner pockets.

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end cuff

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under breast pocket flap

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strap

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reverse cuff title

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inner pocket material configuration image

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m67 Offline
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neck wear at collar and discoloration

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hi m67...did you wind up the winning bidder on this tunic?...its a good looker no matter what,,one of the reasons i thought this may be an upgraded jacket was the fact that there was alot of daggers and swords that was a part of this collection when i first heard of it and when i went to view it,and take pics,,all the edged weapons were already sold even though the owner said,"all or nothing" as for as selling it,,,most any items i believe that were left were probably upgraded/replica/fake as i know the person who swooped in to buy the edged weapons and who knows what else,and in my humble opinion,would have only left items of dubious authenticity as he has plenty of money to buy the finest and rarest items,,, Eek

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m67 Offline
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I'm north of you. I didn't know there was a pre-sale of the collection b4 the auction. As yes, most of what remained was BAD!, like that ss wrapper and hat that has led other members to say it's worse than a hollywood movie prop !, that generals uniform creeped me out pretty bad too.
a few good things mixed in the trash.
heres another you may have seen.
67 out

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yes i have pics of that one as well...i had heard of the collection back in may or so,,,called the guy and he commented he had "one of a kind,medals,ss hats,ss uniforms",etc,,,never saw much in the way of the edged weapons he mentioned,,as i said previously,he wanted to sell the whole ball of wax,and that was fine but i wanted to view the collection in its totality before i committed to an offer,,,i was never able to get him to let me see the whole collection,so i just sat on it for awhile,,when my friend who put me on to this stuff asked me about it i said it had already by picked over to some extent by someone else and since i was told that by the seller after he told that it was all for sale for one price,no "cherry picking"...so really just kind of lost interest in it all until i was allowed to finally have a look at what was left and posted pics here of some of the items i thought would bring about a lively discussion,,,i also helped with the catalog descriptions but made no revelation on the fact whether i thought the items were good or bad except to the friend who introduced me to the fellow who had the items.The gentleman who put these items up for auction had bought them from a man who had a terminal disease.He bought these items from that man with all the receipts that the dying man had kept.I am sure that the seller had no experience in these types of items but saw in them a chance to make some money and after the edged weapons were sold & some pistols too i was told, was afraid that he might have sold the items for a lot less than he should have so he went to the internet auction format to move what was left,,,,i myself bid on only one item and didnt get it Frown,,,bdia bdia bdia bdia That's All Folks".. Big Grin

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Hi the gent you refer to that put the items up for bid, we got a different story at the auction. The guy told several of us that he was handling the sale for the estate, thin guy, with slick back thinning hair. That a wealthy collector had passed and this was his collection. I suppose there were some killa daggers in that lot that went to your buying friend. The SA and army that auctioned well above fair value were good pieces, and liked the grip on that SA. I was alarmed by some of the descriptions, like the Pioneer waffenrock tunic, labeled "SS Tunic", I guess whomever wrote that one figured the black waffenfarbe was for the SS, not quite. That went for 15 or 16 with the good medals on the breast, while the pants were some horrible 1970s west german, that were thrown in and said they belonged together.
67 out

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well the auctioneer had it right twice Big Grin,,however,the owner is certainly alive or was at least in September when i saw him last,,,i did the descriptions on the smaller and more common items,helped arrange lots of insignia,medals badges,etc,also some of the rifles and pistols that were left,,,i had no input on the more "rare" and esoteric items like the uniforms,tapestry,the HG baton,HG ring,HG plate,HG etc,,,like most auctions,,it is not a matter of authenticity,but whether the items sells,,, Winkin fact,,i was offered space in the auction for my items at no fee but i declined as i didn't want my items,"contaminated" by all the "rare" items being offered-concerned that collectors had discerned that most of this stuff was bad,they would naturally assume that ALL of it was bad,,i guess that didnt happen.. Roll Eyes

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I could certainly entertain doubts on this tunic in its current configuration..one point i would make is the lack of wear and 'age' to the collar tabs, when seen next to the obvious dirt and wear of the neckline.

As stated,it may be a period tunic, but i feel it is civil in nature and has been enhanced post war.

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m67 Offline
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Hi Doug, I kinda doubt the tabs were added post war there are no signs of any other drk tabs being on the tunic collar. might also add that none of the DRKs I have ever seen have the lower slash pockets, as those are issued tunics. they are exhibit standard cargo style lower pockets. (issue stylye), this slash type pockets is often encountered on Luftwaffe Flieger blouses.
It is really simple to squash the idea of the originality of the tunic, even easier sitting behind a keyboard, and quite a distance from the item, and quite possibly never to have the opportunity to handle the tunic in person. I salute your opinion, but do not agree.
I'm not here to encourage anyone to agree with my tunic, it is as pictured.
i learned long ago, that this hobby is full of opinions, and quite possibly wrong ones, that is the main reason i left collecting german items some 15+ years ago and moved into british and american campaign medals. I do not collect german items, everthing I buy is sold, to fund more medal purchases.

PS the discoloration in the neck is from sweat and oils from the skin in the neck area, it isn't dirt, and the Sr Sgt that wore the tunic, certainly didn't wear it in the trenches.
67 Out
Close up hi resolution link of thecollar

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You are right... this type of uniform would not be worn in the field(by the DRK or the HG) as it is a dress jacket.

I am still very leary of this jacket. The Tailor's tag states that it is a Civil Uniform item.

I will do some scouring and see if I can find some period photos...

Either way(pre or post war assembly), the tailor's workmanship is excellent.

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I looked all through Brian Davis's book on Luft uniforms,VOl 2 and could find no contemporary photos to match this tunic,,either in dress,or in field use,,it is what it is,,and i believe a civil uniform upgraded,,Robert

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Yes, i am quite familiar which types of tunics were worn in the field, and i am familiar with neck oil etc.I would assume that you would know that is what i referred to, and not dirt from jumping in a trench.

No one is here to bash your tunic, and i agree that opinions are like as*holes: everybody has one.That being said, i stick to my opinion that it is a post war tunic.Having no signs of previous insignia means nothing, frankly.I have seen plenty of Third Reich and post war tunics that had no original insignia applied that miraculously 50 years later, did.

In the end, my opinion matters not.If you believe the tunic original, that is all that counts.

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m67 Offline
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now sold

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Just because it sold does not mean anything. I still think that it is a messed with civic uniform. Hopefully the person who bought it did not get ripped off to badly.

We are not just saying things here for the sake of ripping on you or your stuff. I collect LW four pocket tunics as a focus. While I am open minded and acknowledge that anything is possible, I also know what looks right and what does not.

On top of the nonstandard use of a civil uniform, the insignia does not look like it has been there for 60 plus years.

I can go into detail with my observations if you would like.

I hope that you all have a Happy 2009!


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