UBB.threads

Gentlemen,

I thought some of you might enjoy seeing another type of of hunting dagger that was used in pre-'45 Germany, a cold-steel relative of the Hirschfänger. (pronounced: hear-shh-feng-er) This type is known as a Saufänger, or literally translated to "boar/pig-catcher." The main difference between the two types are the extra wide and heavy blades found on the Saufänger. We collectors sometimes refer to these heavy blades as being of the 'slab-sided' variety. The Saufänger should never be confused with the Saufeder or "pig-spring," actually a pole-weapon or boar spear. Today, you'll see many different types of hunting knives that are called Saufänger, but back in the day, only these daggers with the stout blades were termed as such.

This example has been tucked away in my collection for some time now and only those who've visited our house have ever seen it. I'll try and keep the description to a bare minimum and if you gents have any questions about it, I'd be glad to try and answer them for you.

Most likely made around the turn of the century, having no maker's or distributor markings, with a gilded log-motif as a crossguard with a small lip acting as the clamshell. The light-brown, pigskin scabbard's gilded fittings are decorated with inter-locking geometric patterns that appear similar to some of the old runic symbols. The pommel area of the skinner also reflects this geometric motif. The heavy steel blade is very deeply acid-etched with a floral pattern and a "W" monogram. heh, now you can see why I really like this one ... I'll let the photos do the rest of the talking.

Oh, one more thing before I take my leave ... for those of you who know him, our own Baz69, aka Saufängerkid - these hunting weapons were named after him, he really looks good for his age, don't he? And finally ... Paul, welcome to the wonderful world of hunting and forestry daggers, I hope you'll thoroughly enjoy yourself for a good, long time to come.

Best regards to all !

William Warda, Jr.

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Bill, Love that time period and the great hunting daggers that were made then. Super looking piece and know Gary is proud to have all those named after him. James

that is one of the greatest daggers i have ever seen. if i owned it i dont think i could put it down.thanks for showing it.paul

Beautiful piece Bill, I see what you mean about the "W". Obviously made for you, but you are not that old. Hmmmm!!!

Willi,

Ya gotta love that monogram, bravo sir!

Bill -Many thanks for the welcome, and for all both you and Gary have done to encourage me in my transision to the 'Park Side'!!
I see the fittings on the upper scabbard for a hanger-could you show a picture of a suitable one?
-and where DO you find such magnificent pieces!!!!!

Paul

Quintessential.

Thanks for sharing.

Oh my god it's the big "W", there's been times when I've drooled over this piece for hours on end. It's the best of it's type I've ever seen, bar none, I've seen lots of these over the years but nothing comes close to this beautiful saufaenger.
I have always thought of dating this piece smack in the middle of the Art Nouveau period, looking at those geometric designs it's mind boggling and it's all hand done!!!!!!, none of these designs are cast into these fittings, they were lovingly engraved by the best craftsmen around, the cost must have been unbelievable but how proud must he have been to own such a stunning weapon.
The condition is just about perfect, in the upper echelon's of anybody's mint.
As great as Bill's pictures are you need to see this piece in the flesh to understand all the subtlties encapsulted in this weapon and it's scabbard, you can look at it for hours and I have and still see something different.

Well done, it deserves every acolade and every superlative.

SfK

Stunning photo and if you can believe it the Saufanger is better in the flesh. I am one of the fortunate collectors who has been to the Warda Bunker and I had the opportunity to ogle the knife in person. It is old world German Craftsmanship at it's best. Outstanding unit and thanks Bill for letting all members share in your treasure.

Gents,

Thanks for your kind response, I'm glad I could share this dagger with all of you.

Paul - Here's a photo of the leather carrying or suspension unit - the adjustable loops at the lower end slipped over the Tragehaken on the upper scabbard fitting, which could be opened slightly with minimal force. I've also heard of these carrying hooks referred to as "pig's ears." The upper rectangular portion of the leather would then slide over the wearer's belt and the whole unit could then be suspended safely and securely while traipsing around hunting in the woods.

By the way, Gary owns my second-favorite Saufänger - imagine one of these heavy blades made entirely from solid, beautiful Damascus steel ... absolutely breathtaking!
Maybe he'll let us take a look at this spectacular piece that we nicknamed,
"the Potsdamer..?"

Good hunting to all !

W~

O.K, here's the Potsdamer, named because the retailer is Eduard Schultze of Potsdam.

Gary

Retailer

Eduard Shultze Koniglich Hofflieferant Potsdam.

The riccasso is between 9 and 10mm thick.

Gary

Band damascus blade.

Bill,
Woah!! That's no jest! Thanks for showing us your treasure! It takes 1st place in my book and very unique!
Bill, those inter-locking geometric patterns that appear similar to some of the old runic symbols I've seen somewhere before. From memory, which isn’t the best? I believe are germanic symbols of some type or(ancient)Celtic knots? The figure eight I believe is a continues knot (meaning continuity of life maybe, I forget?), or what is known as an infinity knot. Did they know what infinity meant in them days? And I think I saw something like it on a hammer of Thor that I was researching sometime back. The other knot shown on your scabbard and skinner I believe has something to do with the warrior spirit. Again I could be way off here, but just another point of reference for you in case you decide to research further. Let me know what you find out please. Can we please get a close-up of that crossguard? Thank you.

Once again was granted the opportunity to drool over Garys stunning collection last night-this piece amongst them. For those not yet converted to 'fangers-please stay that way-theres not enough to go round!!!!!

Thanks Gary, and thanks Bill for starting this fascinating thread

Paul

We use terms like "Saufänger" "Waidblatt" "Standhauer", all are edged weapons with large blades, some short, wide and squat, some long and thinner, are there any recognised rules for determining which is which?? length of blade or width, perhaps the way the blade is shaped, I have often wondered how to tell them all apart. I'm sure I've called a Waidblatt, a saufänger or a standhauer, I'm just not quite sure.

Gary

Gary,
Someone must know? I've asked myself that question many times and interchange the names as well. Maybe Houston or some of the other blade experts/authors can straighten me/us out with more detail. With not a lot of detail this is basically how I rationalize them.

As I see it a "Hirschfanger" is considered the weapon or the gun of the hunter which was used to kill deer and boar. Some were decorative as well as lethal. Then in the modern age transformed into a decorative piece for wearing on the uniforms of the forester, hunter and shooters. With Houston’s help most of us that collect these can pick them out. Not talking about the shorter deluxe version of the Hirschfanger. But if we see a short "wide heavy blade" carried on a uniform like shown above, do we call them a Hirschfanger because they are worn with uniform or do we call them a Standhauer/Saufanger due to the blade type and why? Does it matter?

The Standhauer/Saufanger is the most confusing for me. Possibly the same, I'm not sure. I always thought the Standhauer displayed a heavy wide blade. Which I thought was meant to be used to cut small stems and branches when clearing a path to hunt deer. And a Saufanger I thought displayed a lighter narrower blade. In any case I'm probably still just as confused but when Saufanger is mentioned I get the picture.

The old Weidmesser,Weidblatt or Weid/Jagdpraxe is all the same animal if you ask me? They were used to chop and cut up the animal. A heavy wide blade did the trick. I've seen them with three pockets in the scabbard for utensils, also with clamshells and saw backs. These types are awesome!

Mikee

I've always thought of Bill's piece to be the classic Saufänger", the piece you show to me is a "Waidpraxe", I've always thought of a "Standhauer" to have a longer but slimmer blade to a Saufänger, similar to the the Henckels set at the bottom of this picture. Quite where the Boker set above comes into things I'm not sure, perhaps these are also a standhauer.

Gary

I'm not sure of the correct terminology either. An old large German dictionary would tell the tale. I suspect a lot of these terms are seldom used anymore.

I just got here....Holy Smoke Bill!
Never seen such a beauty. Truly a work of art of a by gone era that is so evident in this hansome piece. Just Great. Congratulations!

Regards,
-serge-

Gentlemen,

Good to hear you're enjoying the dagger ...

I'll work on getting some proper interpretations for these terms. I wish it were as simple as looking up the meanings in a good dictionary, because as Houston mentioned, many of these terms haven't been used in normal speech in a long, long, time. I'll try to cobble something together for us.

Best regards to all !

Bill

Bill
Thanks. That would help clarify for me what a Saufanger is.

Gary,
Like stated above it has a few names but yes that is a Weidpraxe, spelling? Chop through bone and flesh like it was butter. If you and Bill say it's a Saufanger than I agree You guys are light years more knowledgeable than I. Like Bill stated I also think for the most part it all depends on the shape of the blade with a few other factors that should be considered. I would agree with the term Saufanger or Hirshfanger for these types. Maybe they’re the same thing. I can barely tell the difference. To clarify I guess my dilemma is Hirschfanger’s as we know have certain traits, combined with customs and regulations which make them what they are and one of those traits, combined with customs and regulations I thought was that when a Jager or Forster straps on “his traditional or customary weapon” or “Hirschfanger” on his uniform this more or less legitimized it further as such?
The Standhauer I thought displayed a much heavier and wider blade at some point on the blatt but would be much like a short version of the Hirschfanger. I’m not so sure now what one looks like, probably different versions made, but if it looks like it can cut branches I guess that would be the one. I will look for a picture of one. What I know is the hunters carried and used it to clear branches so that Lords and Royalty if you will riding horseback through the forest could stay in the hunt. Once the deer was brought down by shot, dogs or both and if the animal was still alive, instead of firing another shot and possibly shooting a dog the hunter would stab the animal through the heart with his Hirschfanger quickly killing the animal. Therefore I would call your very nice set of Henkel’s knifes Saufanger’s with genick’s. Does it make sense? I still think I’m the one that’s confused! Let’s wait and see what Bill can come up with.

It is also known that the Imperial Navy Officer cantidate piece is also known as a hirschfanger even though there is no stag grip and it has nothing to do with hunting or forestry. Also the forestry pieces with ivory grips are also known as hirschfangers. I think it may just be the length and/or shape of the blade that determines the term.

Here's a couple of pages from different catalouges showing the differences in sizes of "Standhauers".

This first one is from a AWJnr catalouge from the mid 1930's.

Gary

This one from the WKC mid/late weimar catalouge.
Looking at just these two pages it looks like these were more of a utility hunting knife(Jagdmesser????), perhaps for a bit of everything???

Gary

The Family Tree Of A Modern Hirschfänger ...

Somewhere around the ninth century a double-edged sword called a Spatha was designed for hunting animals. It's distant relatives were the dagger and the Sax-type or Scramasax blades. It wasn't until the late 1400's that true hunting swords, peasant's swords, practical hunting knives and the Praxe appeared in Germany. Thereafter came the Degen and hunting Degen followed by the true Hirschfänger, around the mid-1600's.

The term Hirschfänger can be loosely translated to mean "Deer-catcher," but in the technical language of professional German hunters the word "fang," means to administer the "coup de grace," or stroke of mercy. Faenger can also mean catch, sieze, capture, net, snare or hook. So for our purposes, we could also call it a deer-killer. As I mentioned before, no matter where you research this hunting weapon nomenclature you will find many terms applied to the same weapon or tool, most often incorrectly.

In the truest sense a Hirschfänger should be described as: a hunter's thrusting sidearm having a straight, double edged blade tip, the top edge leading into a spine and the lower full edge being sharpened. Used specifically for dispatching Red and Fallow deer, as well as smaller boars and piglets. Nathan Duez first termed the words Hirschfänger and Weidmesser in 1664. (an early German spelling for Waidmesser)

Groups and types that come under the heading of Hirschfänger are much more difficult to describe and classify, unlike edged weapons that fall into a category such as the Degen, Pallasch or sword.

I'll try to give brief descriptions of the main types of hunting tools and weapons, hopefully with some degree of accuracy... many of these terms are well out of date and not used in common, everyday language, but chiefly by professional hunters and curators of weapons collections. Lay people will often make mistakes in these terms...

Scramasax (sax blades) - a true forerunner of the modern Hirschfänger, a single-edged knife, sword or cutting tool used by the Anglo-Saxons. The blades can be found both straight and slightly curved.

Jagd Plaute - a short, sharp sabre used to cut the tendons of a deer's rear legs - either by a mounted rider or hunting assistants on foot, thereby reducing the length of the chase.

Jagd Blatt - special patterns of knives used to cut and free large pieces of game.

Praxe - Plötze - utilitarian game butchering tools

Jagdmesser - skinning, slitting, boning and dressing knives.

Standhauer - a heavy machete or Bowie-type of hunting knife used to clear brush and/or saw tree stems from the hunter's field of fire.

Saufänger - a dagger with a wide, heavy blade that is double-edged at the tip, having a spine and a sharpened edge and used mainly for hunting wild boar. To be used in close proximity to the animal.

Hirschfänger - a dagger with a longer thinner blade than the Saufänger, also double-edged at the tip and having a spine and a sharpened edge. During the 1700's the Hirschfänger became part of the ceremonial hunting rituals carried out by professional hunters. Many of these rites still carry over into the present day and must be studied and understood by all who may participate in the hunt.

I trust this might clear things a little bit for those interested, if I've missed anything or made an error somewhere, please let me know? We'll see where we can go from there..?

Best regards to everyone and especially those who've contibuted their time to this thread.

Bill Warda

Fascinating stuff Bill and Gary, many thanks for taking the time to clear up some of the misnomers associated with this side of the hobby.
Paul

Very nice explanations Bill, I've printed this off for future reference.

Cheers

SfK

Gents,

Thanks, a pleasure to share with all of you.

You can see where certain examples overlap and tend to cause confusion, some, will always be wide open to personal interpretation.

I feel fairly confident that at least we'll be "in the ballpark," with the explanations I've given ..

Any additional information would be most welcomed ... the more we know, the more we grow!

Best!

Bill

Bill,
Nicely done and thank you. I have a little to add, after I get my honey do's out of the way.

Mikee,

Looking forward to any additional info you can add ...

I was re-reading an interesting 1942 article by Walter Frevert in "Das deutsche Waidwerk" today,
and Herr Frevert was miffed because so many of the younger foresters and hunters didn't know the difference between a Hirschfänger and a Waidblatt ... he was also bummed-out and complained bitterly that this latest crop of fresh faces couldn't administer the "fang" properly and would rather use a firearm to apply the coup de grace, thereby causing the wounded animal to suffer further, and being quite unsportsman-like, too. He roundly condemned anyone who would not apply the death blow with cold-steel, either because of fear or lack of practice with the weapon. No excuse he said, that man should stay home with his Grandmother and have her read to him from hunting magazines ... real hunting is a man's sport!

Bill

Bill,
When it came to hunting he was the man. He did however have other problems. He did help with the develpment of the original Puma Waidblatt. Interesting person.

My addition is this;
The word Hirschfänger is explained most of the time as meaning deer catcher. And not too often is it called a deer killer as Bill kindly explained and understands completely. But why does this word usage translate to both words “catcher and or killer” and what does it mean as far as the hunter’s perception and view is concerned? “Fang” is an interesting word unfamiliar for those that still might not understand the “reason” for its usage in hunting terminology. The hunter’s language is to say the least a very precise communication between hunters and can be given with very few words. It’s also at times a very graphic vocabulary based on perceptions and exact observations by the hunter in the natural occurrences of survival between predator and prey in the wild. I would like to try and explain the reason behind this word and hopefully help our English speakers further understand it in certain terms of usage and maybe tie all this together and contribute some to what Bill has already stated.

Now for your German lesson. The word “fang” is German for “catch”. An example of its usage in German would be,”ich fang dich”, meaning “I catch you". Another example” Der Fänger fängt dich” meaning, “the catcher catches you” Okay simple enough.

As far as the hunter is concerned and hunting terminology goes the word “fang” is used in terms of animals and nature and means das habhaftwerden, which simply means the act of taking possession, to capture wild animals with manmade traps, nets, holes and iron. The word Fang is used in conjunction with many different types of manmade hunting traps which capture and or kill a wild animal. But it’s also used by hunters to describe the predatory animal’s natural ability to do the same. For instance fang means the mouth of a dog or the foot of a predatory bird for example “fang des Adlers”. These predatory birds not only grasp, hold, and capture their prey with its talons but also kills their prey with them and the jaws of a dog can do the same. Fänge for example means the feet (more than one) of a predatory bird. It also means the protruding teeth of a four legged predator or dog.

Otherwise, it’s the place where the device with that which the animal will be caught or the animal itself once it’s caught. Let me explain, in the wild for “example” it’s the place where an animal gets pounced on by a cat, like a Lynx or from other predatory animals and torn to pieces! About like what I do when I see a nice Hirschfänger for sell, poor dealer! Another example would be your house cat captures a bird; you know where the place of kill is because there are feathers and blood everywhere. It’s also the stab with a Hirschfänger, Genickfänger or Saufeder through which the wounded animal is killed swiftly; this is called “abfangen”. And as far as I know, officially the use of the Hirschfänger is no longer taught or used for this purpose? Abfangen in everyday usage would mean to catch up with or intercept. Abfangen to the hunter means killing wild game. So “Fang geben” or “give fang” is “killing” the animal which is performed quickly in a certain manner and a particular device is used depending on the type of animal to end its suffering. It’s best that young hunters practice with dead animals before actually administering to a wounded one. If a hunter doesn’t know how, then it’s best they use a pistol. This is called “fangschuss”. Sorry Mr. Frevert! Let me stop there and hope this explanation helped tie in to what Bill has already stated and helped make a little sense of explaining the meaning of “fang” to that of a hunter.

Mikee,

You've really given this one some thought and it shows - an outstanding explanation!

Kind regards!

Bill

Gentlemen

I no nothing of this aspect of collecting but i would like to say that i think this is the most absorbing and intresting thead on the whole forum...
Thank you all steve

Here's something that while it cannot hold a light to Bill's wonderful example can stand on it's own two feet.
It's another example of a very large saufaenger with a gothic "W" with crown above, a cypher for Wilhelm II of Württemberg 1891-1918. I must asume from the inscription it was given as a gift for a hunt on the 30th september 1917 by the then Kaiser Wilhelm II in his office of the king of Württemberg. Overall length in the scabbard is around 19", blade length is 11" and 1.5" wide.

Cheers

Gary