UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Army, Navy, and Luftwaffe Forum Waffen Loesche Berlin

Did the Luftwaffe Forestry "Waffen Loesche Berlin" bayonet come in a version with a plated blade instead of a polished steel blade?
George Wheeler's German Bayonet book states that the weapon has a "polished steel 20 cm blade". Also all of the examples that I have been able to find in Tom Wittmanns old catalogs have a polished steel blade with cross graining.
I believe the plated version must also be correct but I personally have not seen one yet. Also these weapons are not really true bayonets but actually fighting knives or sidearms since there is no way to attach them to a rifle. Mike

Mike 582 I also think to remember some of these Waffen Loesche knifes with blued blades offered by dealers.

These knives all had a polished blade, just like an SA Dagger. The blued ones are not correct.
Also, this blade IS NOT LIKE A BAYONET BLADE. The shape is slightly different and the workmanship is far superior to a bayonet.
Waffen Loesche in Berlin was NOT THE MANUFACTURER. That was Anton Wingen and they are marked so C.H.Aw and some are numbered and others are not.
Very unusual knife and high quality.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria
PS: The scabbard IS NOT exactly like a short style M98 dress bayonet scabbard.

Does anyone have any ideas of the meaning of the "H" stamped on the blade spine? Also I have not seen any of the "blued blade" examples. Are these easy to spot as reproductions besides the blade being blued? Do they have genuine or fake stag grips or any other aspects that would easily identify them as reproductions? I just ordered one of these bayonets (a real one) and there seems to be some confusion between me and the seller on if the blade is plated or not.I have not received it yet. Thanks very much for the comments. Mike

The correct manufacturer of these pieces is Chromolit-Arthur Wingen. The CH AW stands for this. I have never seen fakes of these pieces or any with plated or blued blades. The blued blade would be a post war alteration IMO. It is not known what these pieces actually are or what the H stands for. Some-but not all have a brass frog stud (painted black) on the scabbard. Many years ago I saw one stamped with the 33 Eickhorn TM. The blades can not be replaced on these pieces as the blade and hilt (except for the grip plates and the crossguard ) are all one piece.

Houston, are you sure about the explanation for Ch A W? The reason I ask this is that this marking is also seen on .22 trainers marked on the bbl/receiver area. I have always interpreted the marking to mean Chef d.Ausbildungs-Wesen, the ranking officer in charge of SA training. I can't understand how the Chromolit-Anton Wingen interpretation would be applied to .22 rifles.

Gentlemen,

You will also find the Ch A W markings on early Postschutz rifle stocks. These were the first of the newly manufactured Kar.98 rifles that were supposedly for the DRP but were tested by the Heer, according to Law. Law also interpreted this marking to be the Chef d. Ausbiltungs-Wesen in his book on Mauser rifles.

I always felt the distinctive blade shape (with integral tang as Houston describes) on this Seitengewehr looked a lot like the early stiletto shape made by WKC. The grinding technique of the narrow fuller and abruptly cut swedge and narrow blade is strikingly similar to their early Extrawaffen police bayonet blades.

Another thing to consider is that not all of these Waffen-Loesche Seitengewehre bear the Ch A W markings. Likewise, some are obviously items of issue and have serial numbers while others do not. It may be logical to assume that the Ch A W marking does not indicate a maker marking.

I agree with Ron and Houston that the blades should be polished steel and the scabbards are distinctive, with most of them having brass frog studs.

Mike, I would be concerned if the Seitengewehr you are getting actually has a plated blade. Hopefully, it is simply highly polished and the fellow did not describe it properly.

George

houston these have been faked world wide arms sold them for a while over here, at a first glance they looked quite good

For an explanation of the Ch AW see Tom Wittmans Offering # 40 in the Banter section.

Gary

The CH AW could mean something else but that exact designation was recently seen in an actual Chromolit TM. Again-I have not seen any fakes-and I attend a lot of gun and military shows and regularly check Ebay. If someone has a fake I'm sure we would all like to see it.

Does anyone remember last year when Jim Maclean picked up one of these pieces maker marked by Alex. Coppel? Not mint but it had an accountability number on the ricasso and scabbard and was maker marked by Alex. Coppel. Also of interest, the piece when disassembled had a Luft acceptance stamp on the tang under the grip plates.

Billy - Remember I bought that Waffen Loesch Bayonet from JRB back in 2001 and you steered me correct that it was blued over the pitting? I returned it to LTC Johnson, who refunded my money, but insisted it was correct with bluing.

Okay, I know this is an old thread, but I picked up another one of the "Luftwaffe Forestry" "bayonets" (fighting knives)and the screws were not aligned like my others. So I made a tool from a screw driver to allow it to be disassembled. These are of one piece construction generally, at least the CHAW marked ones are. I had read somewhere these may be Luft marked internally, but this example has no discernable markings under the grips. The crossguard and scabbard are numbered the same, just one time. Some actually have 2 different numbers stamped on the same knife and scabbard..reissued or subunit marked? I thought others would enjoy seeing this piece with the grips off, as I certainly would not mess with my other near mint ones. This one came back together nicely, and now the spanners and screws are aligned in neat German-like order.

Other side

Thank you for doing the effort to disassamble and showing the result. Mostly the screws are frozen and I would not recommend to do any try of disassambling so it is interesting to see it this way.

These have always held an interest for me.
Any other thoughts as to the marking meanings?

Way way back I owned a blued example. The scabbard had been repainted and I never trusted it. Had a great brown frog though. Traded off long ago. Before computers for me.

I recall aluminum screws and spanner nuts in the grips.

I know this is a rather old thread but it has much of interest to it. Perhaps it could be linked to the more recent thread.

--dj--Joe

try this:

https://forum.germandaggers.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=299199&page=1

P

Link corrected - Vern

I do recall reading that thread.

Thank you.

--dj--Joe

No ads for "forestry bayonets", but interesting none the less....

........From a publication dated 1937

Paul,

Awesome period publication, thanks for sharing it! Boy, there'd be no problem outfitting some cool threads from that place

Looks like the same add that was on e-bay in early Dec. I was watching that auction... Great add..

Good information on Waffen Loesche Berlin. Thanks for posting the advertisement.

They were obviously a wholesaler or supplier.

posting for DiploMatt

"I have only seen a hundred or so in all my years of collecting but have bought any I could-knots/frogs as found, including 2 with forestry knots"

keep up the good work Dippy!

Dippy:

All I can say is WOW!

J

Dippy,

That's an incredible lineup of Luft Forestry bayonets. The attached knots really help fill in the blanks of what we've all heard & surmised as the original purpose of these well made blades. Thanks for sharing!

Here's a hand grenade that needs catching,I am predominantly a dagger collector however in the last few years I have specialised in waffen loesche,teno and Npea/ Napola (all items) I recently visited the spandau Berlin Napola school which is now a police cadet school ,afterwards I visited an antique fair in charlottenburg just to say I had been to the area where the Npea daggers were distributed from....... Could the ch on the waffen loesche stand for charlottenburg
Dippy

Dippy

CH- Chromolit
AW- Arthur Wingen.

Gary

No wonder i can't find one. Lol

Why not

CH - Charlottenburg - Berlin
AW- Anton Wingen

We're all blades chromed ?
Dippy

Oh and most importantly why does the H on the side of the blade not signify horster as it does under the lug of an Npea dagger From Charlottenburg.Maybe now we are only looking for what the aw really stands for I am sure we can find a theory for that.!!!
Dippy

Dippy,

Those are interesting hypotheticals. I do believe someone here on GD had posted a period advertisement that documented a connection between Chromolit & Arthur Wingen.

The "H" on the spine of some Luft Forestry bayonets has long interested me. Tom Wittmann had a theory that the letter designated an airfield, Hildescheim. Perhaps as good a theory as any.

Sorted it
H - on spine maker mark Horster as per h on Npea charlottenburg dagger lugs.
CH - Charlottenburg Berlin distributor as per Npea daggers.
AW- Achmer Wallenbrock
Luftwaffe airfield from 1936 til 1945 located in the rich hunting forests of Lower Saxony .

http://www.ww2.dk/Airfields%20-%20Germany%20[1937%20Borders].pdf
Well that's my theory anyway.
Dippy🤓

Genius LOL!!!!!!

Nice detective work

Enjoyed going through this thread again.

--dj--Joe

Matt i guess you made a few wrong conclusions here:

Charlottenburg Berlin is not the distributer of NPEA daggers, thats Burgsmuller, Charlottenburg is an affluent locality of Berlin within the borough of Charlottenburg-Wilmersdorf. Established as a town in 1705 and named after late Sophia Charlotte of Hanover.

Why AW would refer to an airstrip?
The Achmer you refer to is called: Fliegerhorst Ahnenkult - Achmer. im pretty sure that would be a wrong conclusion.

I do think your theory of the spine H stands a chance.

I have done quite some research on these Waffen-Loesche knives, even up to the family of the former owner of one i bought in Austria.
They searched for his Soldbuch to see if there was a unit specified, but none was found.

I came across a period invoice of chromolit Anton Wingen, but the abrevement Ch looks quite different as the ones on the blade.
The hunt goes on....

For those who are interested:
http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/luftwaffe/luftwaffe-forestry-knife-waffen-loesche-ch-w-688163/

here is the Chromolit invoice:

Cheers
Ger

Hello Gerrit1963, there is not the least doubt that Ch.A.W. is the mark of Chromolit Arthur Wingen even more as it is the serious research product of the most experienced but sadly late A. Carter AND (local!!! - I think at least these should know exactly) Solingen swordsmiths which was published in full version a few years ago.
The fact that the "ch" is looking differet on the invoice and on the knife imho says nothing because the use of totally different fonts for one and the same during the period is not uncommon.
But nevertheless thank you very much for showing this interesting invoice!

Btw I do own a period studio wearing pic of a member of the Forstschutzkommando. You can clearly see what sidearm he is wearing. A stag horn gripped walking out bayonet..... unfortunately no Waffen Loesche.
Regards,

Hi Wotan,

about your opinion regarding the difference in style of the Ch on the blade and logo on the invoice i think im right, because on the Chromolit cutlery they used the exact same Ch as on their invoice.
Artur Wingen even used the same logo on their SA daggers, so why not on their Waffen Loesche if they produced them?
I think its just not the abbrevement of Chromolit.

Regards
Ger