UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons German Sword & Miniatures Forum SS Officer Candidate Sword

sdesember-Yes I would agree that the rank does not seem correct in this photo. However-I think there is a difference between photos of edged weapons being worn in public and more private studio photos. Perhaps the sword was used just for the photo. Just one photo would not change my mind-especially one that does not show the grip--have any others?

As far as the presentation type blade that is the main subject of this thread goes-as FP says --this type blade has been around for many years and they still are available. I personally have seen Atwood have them for sale in the old days. They usually are available at most big shows. They don't usually sell-they are not accepted as being period made by the vast majority of serious collectors.

Just to add a small note, photographs can be great as an aid in finding whether an item has its origin from a certain period or not. However, there're endless variables to consider when one to decide in what to make of those photographs. Since often, one must rely on nothing other then this interpretation due to the lack of written information afforded to the photographs, it can be a little tricky, sometime, to form a reliable final analysis.

Just for the sake of one last kick before I'm running out of material to post, here's another photograph to ponder which shows a group of die schwarzen Teufel: A Hint (4 Senior NCOs and 2 officers, 4 Saebel and 2 SS Degen)

What a rar and interesting picture !
It looks like the WKC S�bel (1.left), also very interesting no present cufftitles on 5 from the shown 6 soldiers. Is it paper work what the 2. soldiers have in their french cuff on the left side? Tom, missed this one for his book, thats for sure. And then there is a camo black dog in the front too.

An explanation? German Army senior NCO�s carried the same kind of sabers. The SS Ehrendegens are vintage 1936 and later. The German Police degens were introduced in 1938. Senior SS NCO swords themselves were in all probability not designed simultaneously with the SS Ehrendegens and were a later development like the Police swords. With the picture here being from sometime between point �A� and point �B� - which would explain the different types of swords in the photograph. FP

Is there any other source evidence of SS sword designations besides "SS-Ehrendegen", found in numerous sources, and "SS-Degen", seen on the inventory sheet reproduced in Wittman's chapter on the swords?

I was under the assumption from reading Hohne's account, that all graduates of the Junker Schulen received Ehrendegens at the ceremony in the Chancellory with Hitler? Perhaps this was only until the war started? Does anyone know when the ceremonies ceased?

The term Bewerber was used by the SS to indicate an applicant who had not qualified to be an SS-Mann. Is it really a proper term to refer to an officer candidate, if there was a sword for such a position.

This is a very good dicussion thread.

sdsember:
M'Gawd...a tougher looking bunch, I've never seen!
They could be "Poster Boys" for the entire SS any day of the week!
Why do they all have their hands over the hilts???
Doesn't anyone ever hold his sword by the neck? So that we could benefit from the photos?
By the way, GREAT picture!
Jax

I wonder-does anyone read books anymore? do they look at the photos? With one exception all of the period photos shown here can be found in the books. How can any collector function if he does not know what is in the books??????????????From the comments it would seem that many have never seen these???????????????????????

Houston:
As a relative newcomer to this hobby(5 years) I'd like to state the following. I'm a firm believer in books and have made an effort to acquire them whenever it has been financialy feasible. I'm certainly not destitute but I just recently bought Johnsons vol 1 - 8 and paid more than they sold for originally at retail and I thought long and hard before I bought them. Books in this hobby are not inexpensive and I can understand the reluctance of new collectors to spend what's required to obtain them. I also think many of our younger collectors are used to surfing the net to obtain the information they require.
Jim

FP: It seems your posting above regarding the problems with fakes takes us into the philosophical arena of collecting. If someone goes out and buys a collectable and later finds out that it wasn't what he expected then he has a problem he has to come to grips with. There maybe some collectors who think that getting boinkered on a deal is the end of the world and see their profits slip away contemplating bloody revenge or suicide. For these people collecting is not an easygoing hobby but serious business. Other collectors, like myself, are less obsessed with the certainty and guarantee of authenticity but are more 'into' workmanship and aesthetic quality. This sword reflects all the quality of workmanship peculiar to he Third Reich. It is also of a configuration specific to the Third Reich. If this sword, for some odd rationalizations, 'raises the bar' for some confused collectors then they should be looking for a different hobby that provides them with with the joy and relaxation that one would expect from pursuing a hobby. And those who are in this for investment purposes ought to look at real estate or stocks, or look for old bottles at the garbage dumps which could provide outdoor activities for the whole family.
Over the years I have come across too many collectors who are asking others what they should buy. I think that those folks ought to wait until they know what they want and what they want to pay for it.

I like ORPO's postscript to his postings regarding a verse from Ricky Nelsons 'Garden Party'. I thinks it is pretty good advise.

Based on more than 50 years of collecting experience, my best advise is to buy ALL the books and thoroughly study them-and then go back and review them often and then find experienced collectors to talk with about the differences to be found in the books. Go to as many shows as you can and look at everything. Surfing the net for information can be helpful but is only a small part of the total experience necessary to function well as a serious collector. Surfing alone will probably cause you to be bitten quite badly by sharks. This has been said many times before--one more time won't hurt.

Houston, TMJ once told me that his "Wearing...." books do sell very hard.... and he will chancel this series.......
I can only support what you wrote.

Manfred, If you are happy then I am happy. My goal is not to �rain on anybody�s parade�. While I might occasionally fail, my goal is to give my best honest opinion on something. And if along the way I can share some knowledge with beginning collectors that IMO is even better. I know that I could have really used somebody to help guide me when I was beginning. And for myself reexamining previously held opinions right or wrong helps the learning process and makes for better collecting.

While collecting can be an investment that is not why I do it either. I agree that stocks and most especially real estate (at the moment) offer a greater degree of certainty in getting your money back and then some - if somebody is looking for an investment. But I�ll pass on bottle collecting for myself (although one of my brothers is an advanced deep diver who has brought up with some really interesting stuff ).

If we are looking at collecting philosophies mine might be a little different. For example I don�t collect high grade commemoratives even though some of them are beautifully made. I very much appreciate fine workmanship on a period item, but am more motivated by the history of an object than its physical appearance. I have a couple of favorite swords that are not that pretty to look at - but do have a lot of history behind them.

Like you said: Ricky Nelson (and George) got it right FP

I like Houston�s approach to acquiring information and experience. Books are indispensable for any serious collector. And not just books on blades. But also those that have relevant period information on uniforms, events, or how things were organized or done in Germany 60 plus years ago.

Joe, With the exception of the Ehrendegen there does seem to be an information vacuum when it comes to reliable information as regards the different SS degens. You also bring up a very interesting point as regards the term �Bewerber� which I think extends to the use of �SS-Bewerberdegen� as seen in various places. As you stated officer applicants initially were very low in terms of status. SS-Bewerber (candidates) were lower than SS-Anw�rter (cadets) which were both less than SS privates. Officer training has already been discussed, and I won�t go into training for SS NCO�s, but the idea that special swords were created for entry level personnel does not seem at all likely. To me it�s reflective of the assessment of the early days of collecting and the mistakes that were made, which seem to have a life of their own. FP

Officer Candidates--lower status than a Private? Yes and No--but not really IMO. While candidates are usually under the technical command of all NCO's who are responsible for their TRAINING-their real status is higher. Back in my day senior ROTC Cadets were allowed to visit the Officer's Club when off duty at the base training camp. Even the highest ranking NCO was not permitted to enter there. In addition, most of the NCO training cadre were a bit careful in what they said to cadets who would be Officers in a couple of months.
So-in conclusion IMO those Officer Candidates probably had more status than one might think.
I do agree and do not think a sword was created for them however, but I would not go so far as to say they never wore one.

Point well taken. Given the relatively small numbers attending the SS-Junkerschulen and the investment that the SS had in them I don�t believe that they were treated like ordinary rank and file either. I think that the original point was that an SS-Bewerber was an 18 year old at the bottom of the SS food chain on his way to becoming an SS-Anw�rter - and receiving his SS-Ausweis and becoming enrolled into the SS.

And I think that I may have misspoken somewhat regarding Joe Wotka�s comment which was questioning the use of �Bewerber� in the context of an officer candidate. Those individuals that were selected for admission to the SS-Junkerschulen started at what was essentially the bottom of that food chain as F�hrer-Bewerber while they were attending a Vorbereitungs-Lehrg�ng (preparatory course). The Vorbereitungs-Lehrg�ng were independent of the SS-Junkerschulen and were roughly four months (?) long. Upon successful completion of the preparatory course which was conducted elsewhere, the prospective officers were sent to the SS-Junkerschulen where they became SS-Junker (Unterscharf�hrer) at which point they had changed status and were NCO�s as was discussed earlier. FP

Just a few thoughts on photos. I agree with Jim M that if a degen was used as a photo prop, one would not put on the hanger.
I think one reason that photos of the degen without runes are so rare is that the SS Officers who did not recieve the honor degen may have been a little embarrassed and covered the grip with their hand.

A question for everyone about "photo props"

I really wonder how many SS EM, NCO, or junior officers would get their picture take with a sword that they were not entitled to carry. The SS were NOT kown for being understanding.

Dave

quote:

Posted 19 July 2005 14:06
I could accept Manfreds explaination of a studio prop as this was quite common the world over for military personnel when posing in uniform. However the gentleman above is actualy wearing the hanger and I doubt if this would be the case if he was just handed a sword to pose with.
Jim

I think that's essentially what I was alluding to several days ago and all through this thread for that matter!!

There seems to be a lot riding on the interpretation of what is perceived to be an officer�s type pommel on the sword in the picture. I enlarged it looking for signs of knurling which would confirm that it was what it is believed to be. The detail in the picture was not sharp enough to make any kind of determination. Also inconclusive IMO was the ID of the knot other than it was not black.

But what really caught my interest is the upper locket of the scabbard which seems to have two features not normally associated with SS or Police swords in general. Maybe it�s just me - but the locket seems misshaped especially on the lower portion which seems to be an uneven ellipsoid shape (?). And it also seems to have two (2) screws holding the upper locket in place??

Not unquestionable proof of a studio prop. But I think that it does prove that low resolution photos probably should not be relied on as substitutes for more reliable information with disputed topics. FP

How do the degens without wire fit in? Could they be for candidate?

Well said, Houston. We are currently at the stage in our hobby where early misconceptions are being unearthed and done away with. I can count some recent examples as notable:

1) Thanks to my work (yes, I'm bragging, as it was sweat and tears to convince some people) we know now that all army luft and other orange and yellow grips began life as white or cream.

2) We have finally acknowledged that the remnant paint on black gripped lufts shows they were not "funeral" luftwaffe daggers, but were merely white painted grips with black cores.

3) We know now that "Candidate Sword" is not a good way to describe the Officer style swords without grip emblem.

4) We know (or will read in the upcoming Reproduciton Recognition) that "Billet Clamps" are an entirely erroneous idea (even though we seem to know what they refer to because of common usage).

Get the books, make as many friends as you can in this hobby, attend the major shows, and most importantly, use your mind as the tool with which to organize and sort the above three resources!

�How do the degens without wire fit in? Could they be for candidate?� A tough call because I think that we are just beginning to look at these swords in a new light and have not gathered enough data (or pictures) yet to see where the topic going. Offhand I would suggest that if there are in fact true �Candidate� models of the SS degen that they would have been school/SS owned for use as temporary ceremonial dress weapons (it makes no sense to me that they would have been private purchase items). And that at least some would have some kind of accountability markings.

And with an assist from one of my sons we did a side by side image using the upper locket and knot of Manfred�s sword as a baseline for a comparison of it and the one of the Oberscharf�hrer in Tom Johnson's book. It is not absolute proof that a studio prop SS or Police sword was used, but that is how I am interpreting it from what I can see. Showing besides the two screws (?) that especially the proportions/look of lower part of scabbard upper fitting appear to be noticeably different, as does the sword knot as shown with Manfred�s example. Can anyone identify the knot/strap in the picture?

And not to take anything away from the new "Reproduction Recognition" book, which I am eagerly waiting to see, I am assuming that �billet clamps� refers to the remaining visible die set extrusions from the drop forging operation - and not something else? (Called �flash� in American industry practices that is usually removed by �trim' dies with flash removal by sawing or grinding being used only in special circumstances.) FP

An additional closeup image.

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