UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons German Sword & Miniatures Forum SS Officer Candidate Sword

Picked up this sword at a gunshow about 14 years ago. It came without a scabbard to show off the blade. The scabbard came from Tom Johnson. According to the seller it was hanging on the wall of some vet's den. Paid the outrageous sum of $125 (Nostalgia is setting in)at closing time. Nobody had apparently wanted it.

The pommel nut has the SS runes button installed. Must have been professionally done with a lathe cutting a recess.

Blade etch

Other side of blade

Another close-up of hilt

Well, here it is

What a beauty!!!

Im more than happy to re-coop your money mate
seriously very very very nice sword - great find!!

Manfred:
T Johnson has got some of those blades for sale on his site. I believe they're in the $1,500 range at that's just for the blade.
Jim

I forgot to mention, the blade has no maker mark.

Jim m: The scabbard was $150 (1991) and the portepee, which is period made, was $300. By rights, this rig should be in a portepee collection (with a sword attached).
There is a blade like this on one of the swords shown in Wittmann's SS book as well.

Mvogel, did the hilt fittings come with your degen. They seem to be a mix of parts. Thanks

Dale Ellis: Thats how it came. The only thing that was added was the scabbard - and the knot.
I'm aware that many times you see an SS sword (or a police sword for that matter) where the hilt components don't line up or somehow just don't fit together the way they should, with buggered up pommel nuts and bent-out-of-shape D-guards. This one had none of these 'features'. Everything was right on the money the day I bought it. I.E. there were no signs of cobbling or any possible replacement of parts. This is the only sword of this style that I ever came across with the swirl pattern knurling on the pommel nut. I couldn't even find one in Wittmann's SS book - but I like it.

Dale Ellis: In regards to your statement that the hilt seems to be a mix of parts, what exactliy do you mean? Are you referring to the pommel being of different make than the ferrule or the crossguard? I am not aware that this particular style of crossguard is attributable to only one maker. The same goes for the ferrule and pommel. Do you have any insights that I am not aware of?

I believe the etch pattern on your degen is a type used only on Dachau made blades. Johnson has some with the same etch with different makers. He discribes them as most likely post war. Your hilt fittings do not look like they were made at Dachau. Are they stainless steel? The D guard seems to have a built in step fitting and the quillon a drilled hole. These are not seen on Dachau produced degens. On page 484 of the Wittmann SS book there is a pommel on a Eickhorn SS-Police degen that has a enameled runes button a lot like yours.

Yes, I'm aware that the hilt is not the Dachau type. However, if you go to page 474 in Wittmann's SS book you read where Paul Dinger made blades for other makers on a subcontractor basis. Since blademaking ceased in Solingen after 1940 (on production line basis) Paul Dinger continued to make blades at the Dachau forge.
The runes button attached to the pommel nut was apparently not a common practice but done on request by the owner. There were several other example I had come across in publications or catalogs over the years but I don't remember which and where. I was referring to the swirl pattern of the knurling on that pommel nut. The usual is the straight radial pattern.

Eickhorn police officer.

Interesting pommels. I don't know why we continue to refer to these swords as candidate swords when we have photographic proof right on this forum that they are in fact unofficial SS Officer swords. While some candidates may have also carried these in anticipation of promotion I can't believe they would have continued to wear them after promotion and even after a couple of promotions if they were candidate swords.

Thank You Houston!!!! I don�t understand why either. Resistance to provable facts, to adhere to established traditions, even if they are in error??

FP

"They are in fact unofficial SS Officer swords"!!
To what purpose? I don't think I've ever seen a dagger or uniform tagged as "Unofficial SS" I also have the impression that a certain H Himmler would have been singularly unimpressed with anyone parading around with something that wasn't regulation(Official). Please explain.
Jim

Perhaps a better term is "Private Purchase non-awarded SS Officer Degen"

Houston:
I'm a little confused here. Since H Himmler was directly involved in the design and distrubition of the 36 Patten SS sword I think it would be an understatment to say he had a personal interest. Given that; How could anyone propose the approval of the wearing of a model that didn't fall under the strict auspices of the SS? I keep thinking back to his reaction to the non-standard SS sword Sepp Detriech had the audacity to wear and was told otherwise by Himmler.
Jim

What was called the SS officer degen with the runes button on the grip is the SS Honor Degen given out to certian ranks and graduates of SS Officer schools by Himmler.
What was called the SS Officer Candidate degen is for Officers who did not recieve a Honor degen from Himmler because they did not reach high enough rank or did not graduate from Officer school.

Jim, As was stated Himmler awarded Honor Swords to officers graduating from the SS schools, and some others, who were only a fraction of the total ranks of SS officers. There is some period evidence of SS officers who have the �SS� type Degen minus the emblem in the grip.

After 1938 the German Police had very large numbers of the same Degens. But without the �SS� emblem present - so there is no apparent conflict with others wearing exactly the same Degen as long as didn�t have an �SS� emblem in the side of the grip. FP

Gentlemen,

Are we not missing something here? The sword that MVogel shows has an etched blade with Himmler's facimilie signature. If this sword is proper then how can it have this presentation blade? How can it be "unofficial" and awarded by the RFSS at the same time?

George

One photo = 1000000 words. No candidate here.

This officer apppears to be of Captain rank. Obviously he hasn't been awarded an honor degen. Are you maintaining he could wear this "unofficial" version with a blank grip in the meanwhile? Missed a point earlier. If this sword is "unofficial" how does the Officer get away with hanging an SS sword knot on it?

I don�t think �meanwhile� is the operative word here. The number of SS Honor Swords awarded was only a fraction compared to the total number of SS Officers. The officer pictured is of portepee rank, so I don�t think it�s a case of somebody trying to "get away" with something, that he was privileged to wear as an officer. It would seem that a lot of information that is seen in print and in other places just does not hold up when exposed to actual facts. FP

The excellent photograph that Houston posts shows an Oberleutnant with an Alte Kampfer stripe (indicating service prior to 1933 and very likely not a Junkerschule graduate) and what appears to be this same style of "unofficial" or "private purchase non-awarded sword." The photo certainly seems to indicate that this type of sword was worn by SS Officers and not just by Officer Candidates.

My questions were more about the specific sword that is shown by MVogel that began this thread. This particular etched sword blade indicates it was awarded by the RFSS. These are the same blades that Tom Johnson has for sale as probable post-war manufactured as Dale points out. The hilt is this same "non-awarded sword" hilt. How is it possible that these specific parts are assembled into one sword if this particular sword is proper and original?

I have questions about the grip material and construction details - that I hope are elaborated upon as the discussion continues. FP

"The number of total SS Honor Swords awarded was only a fraction compared to the total number of SS Officers."
I agree with the above statement. However: If the wearing of a non-Honor Degen was permitted for those Officers not awarded a Honor degen why don't we see a lot more of these blank gripped swords around?

Maybe we are seeing them. Only now they have grips with an SS emblem present (?) FP

Fascinating thread. This is why I love this forum. Lots to learn and enjoy.

All I can say about the sword is that I like looking at the pictures of it. Whatever its origin, it sure is nice.

In the past 18 months or so, I have had the honor of visiting the Deutsches Klingenmuseum in Solingen, and also the honor of seeing part of Manfred's collection in his house.



Without hesitation, I will tell you all that the latter was far more enjoyable and impressive. I am not kidding.

Don't get me wrong, the Klingenmuseum is a must pilgrimage for any serious blade collector, and I walked the halls in awe. But if 3rd Reich blades are your thing, you will be a bit disappointed. On the other hand, some of the pieces that reside in Manfred's collection literally took my breath away.

I'm sure that many* have been changed to honor degen confuguration over the years by the less than honest. However: IMO if these had been made in anywhere near the number to reflect the non Honor Degen awarded members of the Officers SS corps many should have come out of the woodwork unmodified as direct vet buys over the years.
Perhaps one of out motel buying Forum members would care to enlighten us.
*It's always been my understanding the police swords were the choice of the shysters to make this "Honor degen" conversion.

Houston, outstanding photo!!! Thanks
Jim, I believe FP maybe on to something. Contrary to what many dealers and books say, I've found the degen without runes to be more easily found then those with runes.
On mvogel's degen, it seems to me that with Himmlers name etched there should be some kind of dedication.

Back in the old days we used to see quite a few degens that had plain grips with no wire with Officer scabbards and pommels. IMO, most of the collectors of the day believed these swords were put together from large quantities of parts found in Muller's Dachau forge building. There were period pictures to support this-bins of numerous blades and scabbards-- along with GI stories of putting swords together there themselves. I think these stories were true. There were also a very few degens that had NCO scabbards, plain unwrapped black grips, and police type NCO pommels. Also a few wire wrapped Officer models, a few SS Officer degens, a few SS NCO degens, a few "candidate types" with runic pommels, and a few police degens, both Officer and NCO. with SS pommels.

I believe Jack Angolia came up with the candidate idea for all these swords with grips/pommels with no insignia from a few period pictures of Officer candidates with the degen with wire wrap, Officer scabbard ,and pommel but no runics. He then published this concept in his early books and the idea became "fact".IMO this incorrect or at least only partial "fact" along with several others was then repeated in several other later books as was and still is "the practice".

We now know from a few photos that have just recently been revealed that the wire wrapped Officer models as shown in the photo I posted WERE carried by SS Officers during the period. It would also seem that some Officer candidates carried them also in anticipation of promotion to Officer. We don't know if the NCO "candidate" types are period or just parts and we don't know if the Officer types with plain unwrapped grips are correct or just parts.

As Jim suggested-I don't believe every SS Officer who was not awarded a degen bought one of these swords-there never were enough of these around to support this idea. Also--we know many SS Officers carried a variety of sabers and probably many of them never owned any type of sword. Also as FP suggested-probably several have been post war converted by adding the runics to the grip. ( This would make a much better fake then attempting to modify a police degen which requires filling in the eagle wing holes)

Also-although we know that some of these degens without grip runics were carried during the period we don't know if they were officially approved or just tolerated as unofficial or prohibited but still sometimes worn anyway. As most collectors know -many uniform wearing rules were violated on quite a regular basis. Contrary to popular belief a lot of variation in dress was permitted and no one got the firing squad for it.

Dale is correct when he states that the "candidate" swords were easier to find in the recent past. There was little demand for them-not many wanted an unadorned candidate sword--they wanted those mean looking scary Officer swords with runics--and they still do--but now that it is known that these unadorned swords are in fact SS Officer swords--it is a whole lot harder to find one--and when you do it is no longer to be had for a thousand or less.

and I think that is about where we are today--and now you know most of "the rest of the story" So--considering all that it would seem to me that if Himmler was going to present an SS degen it would be the SS NCO or the SS Officer Honor degen.

Thanks for the update Houston. Once again I think we've got a very interesting exchange of ideas going here. If it points out one thing to me It's the vast amount that we still don't know and are continuing to discover about the 3rd Reich.
The Internet has certainly facilitated the exchange of this information in a far more rapid manner than would have been possible in the past.
Jim

My Sincere Thanks to Houston for his insight and the most incisive account of SS swords and the �old days� that I have seen to date. Very Well Done!!!!! FP

Houston, I am curious from where the photo you posted came? Was that the one I supplied to Tom W. for his recent book? The officer was SIPO member and wore the Winkel because of earlier HJ membership.

Joe-it came right off this forum from another thread.

Thanks Houston. I had emailed you the same and found it myself. This thread has that same photo that I posted last year. A good thread at that.

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/817092573/m/88610163/p/2

Seems what goes around comes around.

Joe,

I did not know this photo was yours and I frankly did not look closely enough at it. Now I see the blank collar tab.

With the knowledge that this fellow is a member of the Sicherheitspolizei perhaps we can figure out the sword and the Portepee in this photo. Mollo quotes Sich.Pol.u.d.SD regulations on page 33 that indicates SIPO and SD officers were to supply themselves with one sword belt and two sword knots. Since SIPO Officers were authorized to wear the SS Off. Portepee, I presume this would explain the SS Portepee this officer is wearing. Mollo also quotes 1942 "SS-Service Swords" regulations that indicate a difference between the service swords and honor swords that state honor swords will no longer be awarded because they can no longer be obtained owing to the steel quota system. #2 of that 26.6.42 order states, "There are no objections to the wearing of one's own SS Service Sword with long trousers for walking-out. by SS-Oberscharf�hrer and above. On the other hand the wearing of Police Swords has to be discontinued." This might explain the sword the SIPO Obersturmf�hrer is wearing.

From this, we might be able to determine several things. First, this is not a W-SS Officer but a Sicherheitspolizei Officer. Second, SIPO officers could wear the (SS?) Officer Portepee as this officer is doing. Third, it appears that SIPO officers had been in the habit of wearing Pol Off swords and this was called to a halt. This may very well be because some SIPO personnel did not have to be SS members and/or came from Police ranks. Fourth, there is a stated difference between honor swords and service swords and no more honor swords were being distributed. Fifth, personally owned service swords were authorized. Perhaps the sword in this photo is simply a variation of the personally owned service sword as Houston suggests. Perhaps this Sicherheitspolizei Officer chose to purchase this specific sword because he was not a member of the SS and he could no longer wear the Police Officer sword by this regulation.

George

George, he was an SS officer, but his record does not indicate an Ehrendegen. The earlier thread discussed this in more detail. The photo predates 1942.

FP: The grip material is wood, the fittings are nickel plated steel. The hilt is assembled the same way as a police sword or a Dachau made sword,i.e. the pommel is screwed on to the tang.

Thanks for the update! I would imagine that its been cleaned as there does not seem to be much age/patination, and from the images I could not really tell how it was made/finished. For a wall mounted sword minus the scabbard it fortunately appears to still be in an excellent state of preservation overall, which sometimes is not the case especially if there is a lot of humidity. Is there a �Kulturzeichen� present? FP

FP: There is no kulturzeichen on the hilt. And, Yes, I cleaned the hilt with Tarn-X when I first got it. Since then I have wiped it with a cotton rag about once a year.

Thanks for the tip on Tarn-X. I have never used it myself, but looking at some of the items mentioned on other forums I see different things being recommended that seem to give good results. I'll have to give it a shot on a couple of items to see how it works out.

Speaking only to the presence or absence of the Kulturzeichen - offhand I can think of a couple of IMO good reasons for a Himmler signed (presentation) sword to be so marked. Conversely, I cannot think of why the opposite should be true. Although it's possible that I'm missing something, if somebody has a viable rationale given the characteristics of the sword(?). FP

For my view I would connect this candidate swords more the SD, but I think there is also evidence on SS photos with this kinda sword. It is still a not answered question, but I am doubtfull that these are realy candidate swords.

There is an interesting picture in 'Wearing the Edged Weapons of the Third Reich', Vol. III, page 55. I shows the Class members of the SS-Junkerschule in Bad Toelz. They are all wearing the SS NCO sword rather than the SS officer Candidate sword. This would support Houston's notion that the socalled SS officer candidate sword is not a candidate sword at all but a private purchase item worn by SS oficers who were not awarded the official Ehrendegen.

I just want to response here to the reply made by Houston from the other thread (Re: "SS-OFFICER CANDIDATES") since it's already archived:

The Degen worn by the most right SS-Oscha. is indeed an SS-Unteroffizierdegen (SS-NCO Degen, the one with the drag). The photo can be viewed with more convenience due to its graciously large format via JRBM's "Wearing the Edged Weapons...", Vol.III, p. 55. The picture is, as the caption states, the first wartime class of the SS-Jschl. Toelz. I still believe that the so called SS-Bewerberdegen (SS-Officer's Candidate Degen w/ or w/o wire grip) is in my opinion designated specifically for NCO grade, i.e., ranks from SS-Unterfuehrer up to and including Sturmscharfuehrer. Why, you might ask? It's because of the photo on p. 43, again in the same JRBM's series, but in Vol. II. There's no doubt in indentifying that the Degen which has the grip covered by the SS-Oscha.'s right hand is indeed the SS-Bewerberdegen. Why the certainty? It's because if examined closely the NCO Degen has a very close distance in between the upper part of the pommel and the upper part of the D-guard curvature. It's almost as if these parts are merged when seen in the photo. With the Bewerberdegen, however, the opposite is true, i.e., the distance between the upper part of the pommel and the upper part of the D-guard is very prominent, i.e., it's as if there is a huge gap between them, again if examined via photograph. How come can I be so sure that the SS-Osca. in p., 43 is in fact holding the Bewerberdegen not the SS-Ehrendegen (i.e., the one with the SS runic button in the grip)? Easy, the SS-Ehrendegen is awarded only to officer grade ranks whom met the requirements set down by the RFSS. This fact has been confirmed via DAL as the truth if I may so bold to argue.

Another point to further muddle up this business, the term SS-NCO Degen used to describe the chapeless, wireless SS-Degen is in fact a bit of a misnomer in my view. How come? If we believe that the Bewerberdegen is indeed designated for the NCO rank then the chapeless, wireless version cannot be for the enlisted rank as well. The correct Ranggruppe designation for the SS-NCO Degen (i.e., the chapeless, wireless), I believe, is the Mannschaften which in the Waffen-SS is from Grenadier to Rottenfuehrer. If we believe this to be the case then the SS-Bewerberdegen, i.e., the SS Officer's Degen w/o the runic button falls nicely into the version used for NCO (Ranggruppe Unteroffiziere, or U.Offz.) which is from Uscha. to SturmSchaf. in the Waffen-SS.

Another point to mention is the laxness in enforcing the regulations concerning the wearing of the type of sword/Degen by any SS-Mann/U.Offz./Offiziere whom had not been awarded the SS-Ehrendegen. E.g., many, no doubt, have seen photos of SS Mann/U.Offz./Offz. wearing the Heer saber. Now if this is the case then it would be plausible to assume that many SS- Mann, U.Offz. and Offz. personels carried a sword/Degen that was a mismatched to his latest rank. However, there is another important sub-point to examine in this matter. E.g., if an enlisted man was promoted recently to become an NCO or even an officer then it might be safe to assume that he would probably still posses his SS-Mannschaftendegen and which due to various personal reasons, e.g., monetary considerations, limited wartime supplies etc., would still wear it after his promotion despite the incorrect use. After all, other SS men could wear Heer sabel regardless of rank in the SS if they were still not awarded the SS-Ehrendegen. Going back to the photo on p. 43 about the SS-Oscha. holding an SS-Bewerberdegen, if as stipulated in this thread by Houston that the Bewerberdegen is in fact for officer only then why the Oscha. in the photo would be allowed to own an officer's Degen? Isn't it easier to believe the absence of reprimand for an officer who would still wear his enlisted or NCO sidearm then to believe if an enlisted or NCO man carried an officer sidearm? If an SS officer desired to carry the SS-Bewerberdegen (SS Officer's Candidate Degen) as portrayed by the SIPO Ostuf. in this thread, then it woulnd't be so much of a tresspass against the regulation as the Ostuf. would not be "stepping any toes" if you will, in wearing such Degen. On the other hand, if the SIPO man were an enlisted personel, I'm sure such transgression, minor as it may be to the non-pedantic types during that era, would invite unkindly reproof from the higher ranked personels, or even possibly the Reichsheini himself, as the such weapon was not yet "earned" per se. In summary, if we would still want to adhere to the idea that the SS Officer's Candidate Degen is in fact for officer grade rank, it is important to consider this last remark at least until such primary source surfaces to claim the truth.

Sendjaja, I'm not sure that I am following your line of reasoning correctly or not, but please permit me to make a few observations: Photographs like that presented by Joe Wotka leave no doubt what model sword is being used. For a great many others there is some ambiguity as to what it is and it has to be guesstimated, with another large number being unidentified other than it looks like some kind of SS Degen style sword. My point being that with all of this discussion the unquestionable photographic record is still minimal.

The SS-Junkerschulen were essentially Infantry Officer Schools with some indoctrination and a few other things thrown into the mix. As such they followed for the most part German Army traditions. Those ranks were arranged from enlisted men, to junior NCO's, senior NCO's (Unteroffizer mit Portepee) and then officers. Swords for Unteroffizer mit Portepee were provided as an item of issue. Cavalry enlisted and junior NCO's were permitted swords. But for the infantry only senior NCO's and officers were permitted to carry them as a badge of rank. Junior NCO's and enlisted infantry were not permitted to carry swords.

That is consistent with information from the earlier thread which stated that SS officers-in-training were not officers (yet) and held NCO ranks as they progressed toward becoming officers. If they failed in school they normally were permitted to keep their NCO status. That would explain why NCO swords are seen with personnel in training at the schools. With the war, the amount of time for training decreased, but W/SS* candidates still had to spend two months active service with a unit after the school before they actually became officers.

As for Manfred's observation on the "Private Purchase non-awarded SS Officer Degen" (PPOD for the sake of simplicity) he is IMO correct and at least some were very clearly privately purchased. TW's SS book shows a number of "custom" manufactured examples of the PPOD which are indicative of private purchases not government issue.

German Police Officers had to purchase their degens and all SS personnel had to purchase their own daggers. The only "freebies" (as far as I know) were the Honor Swords themselves that were awarded directly from Himmler. What still remains to be determined is how the non Honor swords were purchased/distributed and through what channels.

Regards, FP

* IMO the overwhelming majority of W/SS officers did not have Honor Swords.

FP,

First, I really do apologize for the size of the following two images below, but I do feel their large size is very important in the analysis.

The first photograph (pls. see arrow) leaves no doubt that the SS-Oschaf. in the far most right of the front row carries the SS-Mannschaftendegen - the non-officer pommel type.



The second image is an SS-Oschaf. holding his SS Degen with the officer's pommel. Again, in this photo, I also have no doubt that the Degen is an officer's type. Whether it is with or without the SS runic button...I don't know. However, a pretty good guess would be that it's the one sans the runic button considering that his rank would preclude him from being awarded the SS-Ehrendegen. If the discussed Degen as Houston mentioned was in fact for officer only, why, then, this SS-Oschaf. was allowed to carry one? Is it because he anticipated a promotion to an officer's rank? It doesn't still well with me! This can be remedied, however, if there's a regulation stating that those candidates who had passed the final examination, thus completing the SS-Jschl. course and who would then be allowed to wear officer's cord on his hat and collar tab, could in fact also carry the SS-Fuehrerdegen - the officer's type w/o the runic button.



Regards,
SD

I don't believe that the sword shown in that group picture above is an officers sword. The picture in my book seems a little clearer but does not show any 'silver' drag scabbard tip that officers swords have as a rule.
In the picture above the Oscha is most likely showing an 'officer candidate' sword. It is possible that this was a temporary loaner provided by the films studio for posing.

Sendjaja, Large is good. Seriously. Then I don�t need to use my reading glasses.

I think that I understand what you are saying. Which is that there are three categories of SS swords besides the officer�s sword with the SS emblem in the grip:
1) The SS-Bewerberdegen (SS-Officer's Candidate Degen w/ or w/o wire grip). aka: "Private Purchase non-awarded SS Officer Degen".
2) An SS-Unteroffizierdegen (SS-NCO Degen)
3) And a SS-Mannschaftendegen (SS Enlisted Man�s Degen)

And that in the first picture an Oberscharf�hrer is carrying a SS-�Mannschaftendegen�. And in the second picture one has a SS-�Bewerberdegen�. I am not the expert in the area of SS ranks - but for the Kreigjunker-Lehrg�nge I believe that in the SS-Junkerschulen the F�hrer-Berwerber started as SS-Junker, to Standartenjunker, and finally Standartenoberjunker. But we won�t use those terms to not further complicate what is being discussed.

In the first picture a senior (grade) NCO has what I was talking about as SS officers-in-training progressed up through the NCO ranks. Senior grade NCO�s in the German Army were issued rather plain (no external ornamentation) �P� guard sabers for on duty wear. Here we have at least one degen with a plain pommel and none of the visible scabbards has nickel plated scabbard bottom mounts. In concept the same kind of sword carried on duty by senior German Army NCO�s ie: generally conforming to the officer�s pattern but not as ornate. (My earlier point was that enlisted cavalrymen might be seen with sabers, but not infantry soldiers, so where did the idea of a �SS-Mannschaftendegen� come from?)

The second picture is intersting, but I think also raises some questions. The caption states that he is an SS-Oberscharf�hrer der Reserve. Reserve officer candiates attended an abbreviated officer�s school and I don�t think were eligbile as a rule to be awarded the �Honor Sword� like the regular SS-Junkerschulen graduates. I don�t know the circumstnaces regarding this picture, but I think that it�s interesting that his hand (IMO) intentionally obscures the grip - but have to admit that I�m just guessing. If the individual in this studio portrait already knew he could never acquire an �Honor Sword� he may have earlier purchased the �SS-Bewerberdegen� (Private Purchase non-awarded SS Officer Degen) in anticipation of his being commisioned. Or maybe he just borrowed a sword as Manfred suggested??

Perhaps there is some information or better pictures out there. But IMHO the evidence to make your case is not in front of us.

Regards, FP

On this picture the fourth NCO in the front line up is (conspicuously) not wearing a sword. Wonder why? Was the guy a cheepskate or just in deep poverty and couldn't afford one, or was he waiting for the handout from Himmler after graduation?

I could accept Manfreds explaination of a studio prop as this was quite common the world over for military personnel when posing in uniform. However the gentleman above is actualy wearing the hanger and I doubt if this would be the case if he was just handed a sword to pose with.
Jim

As I understand it is that ultimately every SS officer in good standing was supposed to be awarded the Ehrendegen but Himmler fell behind because of other priorities. Is it possible the the designation of Bewerber was intended to describe candidacy for the honor sword rather than for officers rank? Since there were many SS members who entered the SS as officers directly and without going through SS-Schule or through the enlisted ranks there had to be a suitable sword for those folks.

You will notice some other odd things about this particular group of NCOs shown in the photograph. For instance, several are wearing Field Caps (crushers) with a cloth visor and the two on the right are wearing dual cuff bands. The NCO on the left (all sporting the same rank BTW) appears to have a P guard sword instead of an SS Degen. This photo seems to raise more questions than it answers.

FP,

If that's the case, as per Manfred's suggestion, how do we know that the SIPO Ostuf. pictured in this thread was really awarded the Degen he's holding and not used it as a mere prop? What the SIPO photograph tells me is that, yes...this is an officer of the SS, and yes...he's holding a Fuehrerdegen type w/o the grip emblem...and that is it. The photo tells us nothing as to when he procured his Degen. Whether it's from his NCO days which I'd like to call the "carry-over effect", mind you , or a prop, or a genuine awarded Degen comensurately awarded due to to his officer status...this, I don't know!

The bottom line is this, just as my assessment over the photos I presented above, could draw endless speculations as to why the so and so SS man had the type of Degen he had, Houston's suggestion could also produce the same effect. We don't know the background of the SIPO Ostuf. detailed enough to draw a conclusion that the Degen, indeed, was awarded to him because he's just been promoted to an officer rank. To further emphasize my point, pls. cf. the "laxness point" I mentioned in my first post above, e.g., an SS Offz. carrying his NCO Degen or a Heer style Saebel, to further polute this matter.

Just to throw you another curve ball, Guenther Degen posing in the Jschl. grad. photo above is still wearing his NCO Degen (the chapeless, wireless type) although his collar tab rank already indicates he's an officer (an Ustuf.).

sdesember etal:
Perhaps I wasn't clear in my above post so I'll try again. Why would this guy be posing with a studio prop sword and be wearing a sword hanger?? That's either his sword or he (unlikely) wanted his picture taken with a different one!! If he's wearing a sword hanger isn't it logical to conclude he showed up for his portrait with a sword!! Isn't it also likely that the photographer suggested that he take his sword off the hanger so he could pose as shown?
Jim

Sendjajas picture is for my view one photo from the Junkerschule T�lz. Visible from the rune T collar tab, the double cufftitle would make then also sence.

... dem besten Sch�tzen des SS-Junkerlehrganges 1940

Robert

Discussion Tie Breakers??

In Tom Wittmann�s SS book on page # 417 we have an SS officer�s sword - minus the SS runes in the grip - with a Damascus blade and the name of Karl R�ggeberg on the blade. It states that he was a 1st Lieutenant (U.S. equivalent) that did not receive the SS-Ehrendegen. Obviously a private purchase, not an issue sword.

Pages # 405, 410, and 414 show the same model sword with owner�s initials present. Page # 409 shows another with initials that also has an etched motto on the blade. Page # 415 shows another Damascus blade with a name present, and it states that the owner was a Major that did not qualify for the SS-Ehrendegen. All private purchases, with the two named swords going to individuals who were not awarded the SS-Ehrendegen.

If the photographs are ambiguous and can be interpreted multiple ways, the above cited swords are not, unless they are all fakes which I don�t think is the case.

As I stated earlier it is my belief that individually customized/owned swords like the ones mentioned above were purchased not presented. I do not recall seeing earlier references to the SS officer�s sword (minus the SS runes in the grip) being �awarded� - especially in the context of the SS-Ehrendegen being awarded.

Lastly: I don�t know many of the specific practices that were followed inside the SS-Junkerschulen. But from my experience in the U.S. military there were temporary promotions from the ranks, including the use of badges of rank, for use while in training for those personnel who assisted the training cadre. Those distinctions were temporary lasting only until the trainees graduated. Also, I think that I mentioned before in one of the threads, that SS-Junkerschulen graduates were posted to units for at least two months before actually being formally promoted to 2nd Lieutenants - and becoming eligible for the award of the SS-Ehrendegen. But only after they were approved for promotion by their commanding officers. My point being that without knowing more facts informally posed pictures of trainees like the preceding can be as open to interpretation as much or possibly even more than formal ones in a studio.

PS: The �Bottom Line� IMO is that at least some of the SS officer�s swords (minus the SS runes in the grip) were private purchases by SS officers who were not awarded the SS-Ehrendegen.

FP

Hear, hear... for the bottom line! But... it still doesn't mean that these Degen can be termed an Officer's Degen like Houston suggested as its use can also be interpreted for the Officer's Candidate too considering that speculations and arguments can still be made from the selected photographic evidence.

Gentlemen,

I can agree that this type of sword(s) without the SS grip insignia is/are original swords that was/were made and worn during the NS Zeit. I can agree they could be private purchase swords. I can agree they certainly seem to be associated with the Junkerschule in photos quite often. I can agree they are not awarded SS-Ehrendegen.

How then can the sword that started this thread be proper? It has the blade of an Ehrendegen awarded by the RFSS. It has the hilt without the SS grip insignia. Please tell me how this is possible if this particular sword is original and of the period?

I guess that I need to stop beating about the bush and plainly state that I do not believe this particular sword is proper. Either the blade is a reproduction (as Tom Johnson indicates in his list) or it has been assembled from parts.

George

ORPO: Where does it say that these blades were awards by the RFSS?. The motto is standard SS and the Himmler facsimile signature is relatively common and well known to any member of the SS. There is no indication of any special event with a personal Himmler dedication like the one on Himmler daggers.

There have been a number opinions and rationales given why or why not this sword could be viable. And after it is all said and done it is still a beautiful collectable and (considering everything) well worth the expenditure. Would I pay top dollar (whatever that means) for this sword? Hell no. Mainly because I haven't paid top dollar (or anything near that) for any item in my collection.
Over the years I have watched many items in the questionable or out-of-the-ordinary category being discussed and critiqued on this forum with conclusions based mainly on faith. My own personal conclusion is that anything is possible and I'd leave it at that.

George, I understand where you are coming from, but I think that it might help first if we actually had a legitimate period German name for the sword. As you already know during Imperial times the government property dress swords for senior ranking infantry Unteroffizier mit Portepee were called �Infanterie-Offizierdegen�. And Third Reich era government issue Luftwaffe �Fleigeroffizierdolch� carried by later era Unteroffizier mit Portepee retained the same name and German Army ranking NCO�s carried their unornamented government issue sabers. They did not change sword or dagger names to conform to end users being enlisted men.

There is period physical evidence that the SS Degens with runes were called �Ehrendegens des Reichsf�hrers SS�. Using or creating German sounding names like: �SS-Mannschaftendegen�, �SS-Unteroffizierdegen�, or �SS-Bewerberdegen� can be extremely misleading if they were not used during the time of the Third Reich and/or were called something else.

My point being that especially with some of the better made fakes sometimes it is it is the small details or some other seemingly non-related factor which gives them away as fakes. I am not prejudging Manfred�s sword - only pointing out that some otherwise very good fakes have been discovered by inscriptions with poor German grammar or something else that does not make sense. And there are some questions about why the sword is in the configuration that it is in - especially since the issue of what it really is has a bearing on that configuration.

Photographs: I have an excellent photograph of an SS soldier in training with a Czech VZ24 rifle and bayonet. Does that mean that Czech weapons were for a time standard issue for some SS soldiers? In this case yes, because there are a number of other photographs of Czech weapons being used in combat operations in various theaters. I have another photograph of an SS soldier in Russia using a Russian Tokarev rifle. Does that mean that they were standard SS issue at one time? No, the Tokarev�s were used temporarily as field expedients and disposed of when they quit working or could no longer get ammunition.

My point here being that without some kind of corroboration a few photographs (and most especially blurred/fuzzy ones) don�t prove that an item was standard issue for a specific class of individuals. Only that on the day that the picture was taken that a specific item may have been used.

Best Regards, FP

sdesember--The SS Officer's sword knot was also worn by senior NCO's but it is still an Officer's knot--correctimundo?

mvogel,

Please understand that I am not trying to beat you up regarding your sword. It belongs to you and you may think it is whatever you wish to. I am also aware that you did not ask for an opinion on this sword when you showed it. That is why I did not directly challenge its authenticity at first. But, I think your sword confuses the issue of what these swords are, or are not, after several days of discussion on that specific topic.

You say that you bought the sword because it languished at a gun show and nobody else bought it. You bought it because you thought it was beautiful and you are happy with it. You also say that you added the scabbard and Portepee. This all confuses the issue of this class of SS Degen.

My opinion (well understood that you did not ask for my opinion) is that your sword is not a proper sword to represent the class of SS swords that are now under discussion. The blade is of a type that Tom Johnson deems to be postwar and sells as such for much more money than you paid for your blade and hilt. The blade is of a type that is indeed awarded by the RFSS because of the signature. You do not see SS daggers with Himmler's signature unless they were awarded by him. Most notably the SS daggers that replaced the R�hm awarded daggers that all have the SS motto on the other side of the blade just as your sword blade does. These RFSS awarded SS daggers have no award dates but do have Himmler's signature. I do not believe that Heinrich Himmler would have allowed a facimilie of his signature on a sword or Dagger unless he approved the award of such an edged weapon. Himmler put his facimilie signature on daggers, SS Honor Rings, SS sports awards, SS plates, etc and they were all awarded in the name of the RFSS.

Sorry to be so blunt, but you are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. I simply believe that it confuses the reader of this thread to believe that your specific sword is simply another variation of the class of swords under discussion without a challenge.

I have now made my point (and hopefully not any enemies) and I am done.

George

IMO George is correct in everything that he has said. Confusion is something we certainly don't need or want.

Houston: You're exactly correct! But... those Senior NCO's were most likely Jschls. candidates who had passed his Stanob. examination and were thus entitled to wear the officer cord and piping on his Dienstmuetze and Kragenspiegel respectively. And from the photos I posted above they wore the officer's portepee w/ the NCO Degen, not the officer's candidate's.

I agree that the senior NCO's wore the NCO degen and not the private purchase Officer degen --- but did they all pass the tests you speak of???--I ask this because I have never seen a photo of the SS NCO degen in wear that did not have the Officer knot on it. Perhaps this class of NCO was the only class entitled to wear the NCO degen--and with the Officer knot. I know we apparently have been unable to locate exact regulations for the wear of the SS NCO degen and this has been discussed in other threads==perhaps this is the answer.

ORPO: Your statement that any artifact that carried Himmler's name had to be personally presented by Himmler is your opinion, but again, where does it say that? Pardon my curiosity in this matter, but we all know that many of those socalled facts started out as unsubstantiated guesses and opinions that sounded reasonable, so everyone got onboard. Thus, if you have first hand information on Himmler's personal habits as they relate to this matter don't hold out now.

Houston,

The reason why we've never seen photographs of SS-NCO Degen w/o the officer's portepee is because this portepee was the only one used to adorn SS Degen, at least starting in 1935 when the portepee was first introduced. The other type, the one similar to the officer's type, but w/ black strap and crown, was in fact used for bayonet only, at least according to Mollo, cf. "Uniforms of the SS (2nd ed.)" vol. IV, p. 43 and the errata on p. 52.

Sdesember-Not quite correct. The black knot with runics is seen in several period photos on this forum in another thread being worn on the saber also by NCO's. In addition, In Wittmann's SS book there is a photo of one being worn on a dagger--but I think this was not "regulation".

But the point I was trying to make is that although we don't have the regulations for the wear of the NCO degen-it would seem that it was limited to very senior NCO's-not just any NCO.

That the Officer�s knot was used by senior grade NCO's, not just any NCO, makes sense to me and generally conforms to German Army practices. The leaders and staff of the SS Junkerschulen originally came from the German Army - which probably had a lot to do with how things were done inside the schools.

Manfred, I am a little confused by your comments. Do they refer to Himmler presenting a sword from his hand to the hand of some recipient? Or something that was presented in his name?

I think that photographs can give a good indication of how Himmler handled presentations in general. I know that we are not talking about the �Birthday Degens� here, but I think that they might be a good starting point for items that were unquestionably named individual hand to hand presentations. Looking at the pictures in Tom Wittmann�s SS book the SS �Birthday Degens� are fully inscribed and seem to have the SS Kulturzeichen present. Which I think would be expected on non Dachau produced items ordered/delivered to the SS. The same type Kulturzeichen as seen on the Solingen manufactured �Ehrendegens des Reichsf�hrers SS�. And a number of photographs of him physically presenting non-signed (I think a very reasonable assumption) examples of the SS Ehrendegens.

Signed presentations like the �generic� M1933 Himmler daggers are obviously another matter from an earlier time. However, there is a film record of him personally presenting the first 200 examples of the Himmler signed daggers. I don�t know about how the rest of them were awarded which could have been presented in his name (?). I�m not quite sure as yet how all this is related to your sword. But the photographs do not leave much room open for interpretation like opinions might. And I think are something to add to the discussion to provide some background. FP

The etching on my sword does not express a dedication or an indication of award for loyalty or other services. It merely states: H. Himmler, Reichsfuehrer SS. Maybe it is a prototype submitted to the SS for approval or, maybe, it was assembled after the war. But what was the purpose of the blade in the first place, and why would someone attach a 'candidate' handle rather than one with the runic symbol? It certainly would have garnered more bucks. Thus if you want to use 'reasonable assumptions' as the guiding principle you have to go both ways.
Also, the absence or presence of the kulturzeichen has been highly overused as a proof of originality. In effect, we have no reason to assume that there ever existed a mandate for its application. Many of the police swords have it while others don't, and the same goes for SS swords. Thus the absence of a kulturzeichen from my sword indicates absolutely nothing.

Houston,

I think your examples above illustrate my point much better which is: just because we see something is worn in a period photograph, it doesn't mean that that something is worn per regulation. Your example of the black portepee worn with the Saebel, which is a response related to my previous post, specifically illustrates this point well.

PS: The black portepee might have been authorised for wear w/ Saebel designated for the SS before the introduction of the 1936 Model of SS Degen; and when the 1936 Model finally came out, perhaps, the use of the black portepee were replaced by the discussed officer's portepee.

I don't think so. I think the wear of the black knot with the saber or bayonet by JUNIOR NCO's was regulation and correct. I believe only the SENIOR NCO's could wear the NCO degen and/or the Officer knot. I also believe that Officer candidates awaiting promotion and SS Officers not awarded the Honor degen could wear the Officer Degen without grip runics with the Officer knot. I see nothing to refute this and period photos tend to prove this so far.

I believe only the SENIOR NCO's could wear the NCO degen and/or the Officer knot.

Please cf. below! This photograph shows a Senior NCO and yet he's seen w/ an SS Officer's Candidate Degen.

I also believe that Officer candidates awaiting promotion and SS Officers not awarded the Honor degen could wear the Officer Degen without grip runics with the Officer knot. I see nothing to refute this and period photos tend to prove this so far.

Again, cf. the same photograph below! If the Oschaf. were already in the process of being promoted to an officer rank, which I very much doubt, wouldn't he, first, be promoted to the rank of Standartenoberjunker (Stanob.)?

I have to agree that it�s not a presentation blade in the sense that it�s not to a named individual or have a salutation like on the Himmler M1933�s. That is a part of the problem I think because it does not seem to make sense especially in combination with a �Candidate� (or �Private Purchase Officer�s Degen�) handle. Of course anything is always possible, and discounting any questions about the source of the blade, why would a "prototype" sword with a non Dachau hilt (w/special order pommel) which has a facsimile of Himmler�s name on the blade also not have maker's mark/identifiers present in case it was approved? 'Stealth' prototypes was not the way things were usually done if some problem had to be corrected or a design change was needed (or if you possibly had multiple examples/companies in competition using parts from various sources).

I also most respectfully don�t agree with the idea of the SS Kulturzeichen meaning absolutely nothing. All M1936 daggers have them, and if you look at the information from Joe Wotka in Tom Wittmann�s book you will see that when the Police degens were introduced in 1938 it was stated that they were made under SS control. And purchasers were to look for the Krebs trademark and the SS Kulturzeichen. Further on it states that a complaint was filed and eventually other Solingen makers were permitted to manufacture the Police swords. Some in conjunction with the SS and some without - which is why some makers have the marking and others don�t. Hit and miss Kulturzeichen was not true for the standard Solingen made SS Ehrendegen which all had the marking in one form or another.

Likewise, the Munich produced fittings for the �Birthday Swords� have very prominent Kulturzeichen on them . The singular exception was the Dachau manufactured Ehrendegen inasmuch as Dachau was already under complete SS control. My point being that (except for Dachau) SS sanctioned swords had the Kulturzeichen. Swords from non sanctioned sources did not. And the use of the signature of the RFSS was not something to try and do without his approval first if you wanted a long and healthy life in Germany in the late 1930�s or later.

There is no question that it's a beautiful sword and the kind of a bargain that most folks just dream about even as a conversation piece. The problem is that with the very large number of fakes that have floating around for at least the last 40 years or so is getting acceptance. Especially from observers some of whom have seen too many things that looked good at first. Only to find out that upon close examination and analysis that what they were looking at was not what it first seemed to be. For some of those individuals the bar is going to be raised higher, which I think is going to require more than just possibilities. FP

sdesember-Yes I would agree that the rank does not seem correct in this photo. However-I think there is a difference between photos of edged weapons being worn in public and more private studio photos. Perhaps the sword was used just for the photo. Just one photo would not change my mind-especially one that does not show the grip--have any others?

As far as the presentation type blade that is the main subject of this thread goes-as FP says --this type blade has been around for many years and they still are available. I personally have seen Atwood have them for sale in the old days. They usually are available at most big shows. They don't usually sell-they are not accepted as being period made by the vast majority of serious collectors.

Just to add a small note, photographs can be great as an aid in finding whether an item has its origin from a certain period or not. However, there're endless variables to consider when one to decide in what to make of those photographs. Since often, one must rely on nothing other then this interpretation due to the lack of written information afforded to the photographs, it can be a little tricky, sometime, to form a reliable final analysis.

Just for the sake of one last kick before I'm running out of material to post, here's another photograph to ponder which shows a group of die schwarzen Teufel: A Hint (4 Senior NCOs and 2 officers, 4 Saebel and 2 SS Degen)

What a rar and interesting picture !
It looks like the WKC S�bel (1.left), also very interesting no present cufftitles on 5 from the shown 6 soldiers. Is it paper work what the 2. soldiers have in their french cuff on the left side? Tom, missed this one for his book, thats for sure. And then there is a camo black dog in the front too.

An explanation? German Army senior NCO�s carried the same kind of sabers. The SS Ehrendegens are vintage 1936 and later. The German Police degens were introduced in 1938. Senior SS NCO swords themselves were in all probability not designed simultaneously with the SS Ehrendegens and were a later development like the Police swords. With the picture here being from sometime between point �A� and point �B� - which would explain the different types of swords in the photograph. FP

Is there any other source evidence of SS sword designations besides "SS-Ehrendegen", found in numerous sources, and "SS-Degen", seen on the inventory sheet reproduced in Wittman's chapter on the swords?

I was under the assumption from reading Hohne's account, that all graduates of the Junker Schulen received Ehrendegens at the ceremony in the Chancellory with Hitler? Perhaps this was only until the war started? Does anyone know when the ceremonies ceased?

The term Bewerber was used by the SS to indicate an applicant who had not qualified to be an SS-Mann. Is it really a proper term to refer to an officer candidate, if there was a sword for such a position.

This is a very good dicussion thread.

sdsember:
M'Gawd...a tougher looking bunch, I've never seen!
They could be "Poster Boys" for the entire SS any day of the week!
Why do they all have their hands over the hilts???
Doesn't anyone ever hold his sword by the neck? So that we could benefit from the photos?
By the way, GREAT picture!
Jax

I wonder-does anyone read books anymore? do they look at the photos? With one exception all of the period photos shown here can be found in the books. How can any collector function if he does not know what is in the books??????????????From the comments it would seem that many have never seen these???????????????????????

Houston:
As a relative newcomer to this hobby(5 years) I'd like to state the following. I'm a firm believer in books and have made an effort to acquire them whenever it has been financialy feasible. I'm certainly not destitute but I just recently bought Johnsons vol 1 - 8 and paid more than they sold for originally at retail and I thought long and hard before I bought them. Books in this hobby are not inexpensive and I can understand the reluctance of new collectors to spend what's required to obtain them. I also think many of our younger collectors are used to surfing the net to obtain the information they require.
Jim

FP: It seems your posting above regarding the problems with fakes takes us into the philosophical arena of collecting. If someone goes out and buys a collectable and later finds out that it wasn't what he expected then he has a problem he has to come to grips with. There maybe some collectors who think that getting boinkered on a deal is the end of the world and see their profits slip away contemplating bloody revenge or suicide. For these people collecting is not an easygoing hobby but serious business. Other collectors, like myself, are less obsessed with the certainty and guarantee of authenticity but are more 'into' workmanship and aesthetic quality. This sword reflects all the quality of workmanship peculiar to he Third Reich. It is also of a configuration specific to the Third Reich. If this sword, for some odd rationalizations, 'raises the bar' for some confused collectors then they should be looking for a different hobby that provides them with with the joy and relaxation that one would expect from pursuing a hobby. And those who are in this for investment purposes ought to look at real estate or stocks, or look for old bottles at the garbage dumps which could provide outdoor activities for the whole family.
Over the years I have come across too many collectors who are asking others what they should buy. I think that those folks ought to wait until they know what they want and what they want to pay for it.

I like ORPO's postscript to his postings regarding a verse from Ricky Nelsons 'Garden Party'. I thinks it is pretty good advise.

Based on more than 50 years of collecting experience, my best advise is to buy ALL the books and thoroughly study them-and then go back and review them often and then find experienced collectors to talk with about the differences to be found in the books. Go to as many shows as you can and look at everything. Surfing the net for information can be helpful but is only a small part of the total experience necessary to function well as a serious collector. Surfing alone will probably cause you to be bitten quite badly by sharks. This has been said many times before--one more time won't hurt.

Houston, TMJ once told me that his "Wearing...." books do sell very hard.... and he will chancel this series.......
I can only support what you wrote.

Manfred, If you are happy then I am happy. My goal is not to �rain on anybody�s parade�. While I might occasionally fail, my goal is to give my best honest opinion on something. And if along the way I can share some knowledge with beginning collectors that IMO is even better. I know that I could have really used somebody to help guide me when I was beginning. And for myself reexamining previously held opinions right or wrong helps the learning process and makes for better collecting.

While collecting can be an investment that is not why I do it either. I agree that stocks and most especially real estate (at the moment) offer a greater degree of certainty in getting your money back and then some - if somebody is looking for an investment. But I�ll pass on bottle collecting for myself (although one of my brothers is an advanced deep diver who has brought up with some really interesting stuff ).

If we are looking at collecting philosophies mine might be a little different. For example I don�t collect high grade commemoratives even though some of them are beautifully made. I very much appreciate fine workmanship on a period item, but am more motivated by the history of an object than its physical appearance. I have a couple of favorite swords that are not that pretty to look at - but do have a lot of history behind them.

Like you said: Ricky Nelson (and George) got it right FP

I like Houston�s approach to acquiring information and experience. Books are indispensable for any serious collector. And not just books on blades. But also those that have relevant period information on uniforms, events, or how things were organized or done in Germany 60 plus years ago.

Joe, With the exception of the Ehrendegen there does seem to be an information vacuum when it comes to reliable information as regards the different SS degens. You also bring up a very interesting point as regards the term �Bewerber� which I think extends to the use of �SS-Bewerberdegen� as seen in various places. As you stated officer applicants initially were very low in terms of status. SS-Bewerber (candidates) were lower than SS-Anw�rter (cadets) which were both less than SS privates. Officer training has already been discussed, and I won�t go into training for SS NCO�s, but the idea that special swords were created for entry level personnel does not seem at all likely. To me it�s reflective of the assessment of the early days of collecting and the mistakes that were made, which seem to have a life of their own. FP

Officer Candidates--lower status than a Private? Yes and No--but not really IMO. While candidates are usually under the technical command of all NCO's who are responsible for their TRAINING-their real status is higher. Back in my day senior ROTC Cadets were allowed to visit the Officer's Club when off duty at the base training camp. Even the highest ranking NCO was not permitted to enter there. In addition, most of the NCO training cadre were a bit careful in what they said to cadets who would be Officers in a couple of months.
So-in conclusion IMO those Officer Candidates probably had more status than one might think.
I do agree and do not think a sword was created for them however, but I would not go so far as to say they never wore one.

Point well taken. Given the relatively small numbers attending the SS-Junkerschulen and the investment that the SS had in them I don�t believe that they were treated like ordinary rank and file either. I think that the original point was that an SS-Bewerber was an 18 year old at the bottom of the SS food chain on his way to becoming an SS-Anw�rter - and receiving his SS-Ausweis and becoming enrolled into the SS.

And I think that I may have misspoken somewhat regarding Joe Wotka�s comment which was questioning the use of �Bewerber� in the context of an officer candidate. Those individuals that were selected for admission to the SS-Junkerschulen started at what was essentially the bottom of that food chain as F�hrer-Bewerber while they were attending a Vorbereitungs-Lehrg�ng (preparatory course). The Vorbereitungs-Lehrg�ng were independent of the SS-Junkerschulen and were roughly four months (?) long. Upon successful completion of the preparatory course which was conducted elsewhere, the prospective officers were sent to the SS-Junkerschulen where they became SS-Junker (Unterscharf�hrer) at which point they had changed status and were NCO�s as was discussed earlier. FP

Just a few thoughts on photos. I agree with Jim M that if a degen was used as a photo prop, one would not put on the hanger.
I think one reason that photos of the degen without runes are so rare is that the SS Officers who did not recieve the honor degen may have been a little embarrassed and covered the grip with their hand.

A question for everyone about "photo props"

I really wonder how many SS EM, NCO, or junior officers would get their picture take with a sword that they were not entitled to carry. The SS were NOT kown for being understanding.

Dave

quote:

Posted 19 July 2005 14:06
I could accept Manfreds explaination of a studio prop as this was quite common the world over for military personnel when posing in uniform. However the gentleman above is actualy wearing the hanger and I doubt if this would be the case if he was just handed a sword to pose with.
Jim

I think that's essentially what I was alluding to several days ago and all through this thread for that matter!!

There seems to be a lot riding on the interpretation of what is perceived to be an officer�s type pommel on the sword in the picture. I enlarged it looking for signs of knurling which would confirm that it was what it is believed to be. The detail in the picture was not sharp enough to make any kind of determination. Also inconclusive IMO was the ID of the knot other than it was not black.

But what really caught my interest is the upper locket of the scabbard which seems to have two features not normally associated with SS or Police swords in general. Maybe it�s just me - but the locket seems misshaped especially on the lower portion which seems to be an uneven ellipsoid shape (?). And it also seems to have two (2) screws holding the upper locket in place??

Not unquestionable proof of a studio prop. But I think that it does prove that low resolution photos probably should not be relied on as substitutes for more reliable information with disputed topics. FP

How do the degens without wire fit in? Could they be for candidate?

Well said, Houston. We are currently at the stage in our hobby where early misconceptions are being unearthed and done away with. I can count some recent examples as notable:

1) Thanks to my work (yes, I'm bragging, as it was sweat and tears to convince some people) we know now that all army luft and other orange and yellow grips began life as white or cream.

2) We have finally acknowledged that the remnant paint on black gripped lufts shows they were not "funeral" luftwaffe daggers, but were merely white painted grips with black cores.

3) We know now that "Candidate Sword" is not a good way to describe the Officer style swords without grip emblem.

4) We know (or will read in the upcoming Reproduciton Recognition) that "Billet Clamps" are an entirely erroneous idea (even though we seem to know what they refer to because of common usage).

Get the books, make as many friends as you can in this hobby, attend the major shows, and most importantly, use your mind as the tool with which to organize and sort the above three resources!

�How do the degens without wire fit in? Could they be for candidate?� A tough call because I think that we are just beginning to look at these swords in a new light and have not gathered enough data (or pictures) yet to see where the topic going. Offhand I would suggest that if there are in fact true �Candidate� models of the SS degen that they would have been school/SS owned for use as temporary ceremonial dress weapons (it makes no sense to me that they would have been private purchase items). And that at least some would have some kind of accountability markings.

And with an assist from one of my sons we did a side by side image using the upper locket and knot of Manfred�s sword as a baseline for a comparison of it and the one of the Oberscharf�hrer in Tom Johnson's book. It is not absolute proof that a studio prop SS or Police sword was used, but that is how I am interpreting it from what I can see. Showing besides the two screws (?) that especially the proportions/look of lower part of scabbard upper fitting appear to be noticeably different, as does the sword knot as shown with Manfred�s example. Can anyone identify the knot/strap in the picture?

And not to take anything away from the new "Reproduction Recognition" book, which I am eagerly waiting to see, I am assuming that �billet clamps� refers to the remaining visible die set extrusions from the drop forging operation - and not something else? (Called �flash� in American industry practices that is usually removed by �trim' dies with flash removal by sawing or grinding being used only in special circumstances.) FP