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Not sure I've got this right. What your saying is that someone found a pile of original black leather wrapped honor daggers with Damascus blades after the wars end. They then added the chain and clip. Is that what your saying? Also I'm not sure I understand but are you saying that the reverse inscriptions are post war added? If you are saying any of the above then please seek professional help right away before you harm yourself or others.

Gailen David

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just a little question here , wouldn`t silver be a very poor metal for making these suspension chains from ?? , even 800 grade would surely wear away rapidly if dagger was in wear , especially the bottom link to scabbard ring fitting where its just a small single bit. we know daggers took some stick and normal chained daggers are found with bent and buckled connecting links , i would have thought that any grade of silver would wear away rapidly on suspension chains due to the swinging friction between parts, ok on other fittings but chains ?? , maybe on a big chunky chain but on one of these ? or were they not intended to be worn .

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What happened to buy the item not the story ? ?

Brian

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Houston, one of the first of a series of decrees:
quote:
Gesetz gegen heimtückische Angriffe auf Staat und Partei und zum Schutz der Parteiuniformen. Vom 20. Dezember 1934 ......................
§ 5 (1) Wer parteiamtliche Uniformen, Uniformteile, Gewebe, Fahnen oder Abzeichen der NSDAP., ihrer Gliederungen oder der ihr angeschlossenen Verbände ohne Erlaubnis des Reichsschatzmeisters der NSDAP. gewerbsmäßig herstellt, vorrätig hält, feilhält, oder sonst in Verkehr bringt, wird mit Gefängnis bis zu zwei Jahren bestraft. Für welche Uniformteile und Gewebe es der Erlaubnis bedarf, bestimmt der Reichsschatzmeister der NSDAP. im Einvernehmen mit dem Reichswirtschaftsminister durch eine im Reichsgesetzblatt zu veröffentlichende Bekanntmachung. (2) Wer parteiamtliche Uniformen und Abzeichen im Besitz hat, ohne dazu als Mitglieder der NSDAP., ihrer Gliederungen oder der ihr angeschlossenen Verbände oder aus einem anderen Grunde befugt zu sein, wird mit Gefängnis bis zu einem Jahr, und, wenn er diese Gegenstände trägt, mit Gefängnis nicht unter einem Monat bestraft. (3) Den parteiamtlichen Uniformen, Uniformteilen und Abzeichen stehen solche Uniformen, Uniformteile und Abzeichen gleich, die ihnen zum Verwechseln ähnlich sind. (4) Neben der Strafe ist auf Einziehung der Uniformen, Uniformteile, Gewebe, Fahnen oder Abzeichen, auf die sich die strafbare Handlung bezieht, zu erkennen. Kann keine bestimmte Person verfolgt oder verurteilt werden, so ist auf Einziehung selbständig zu erkennen, wenn im übrigen die Voraussetzungen hierfür vorliegen. .....................

Der Führer und Reichskanzler
Adolf Hitler
Der Reichsminister der Justiz
Dr. Gürtner
Der Stellvertreter des Führers Reichsminister ohne Geschäftsbereich
R. Heß
Der Reichsminister des Innern
Frick
zugleich für den Reichsminister der Luftfahrt

While varying periods of jail time could be expected. Where the potential peril to one’s existence comes in is with the phony Gahr marked items - which also incorporate national symbols. And while in theory German citizens had certain rights. The very fatal purges of the SA, the concentration camps etc. etc. would mean I think to any sane rational being. That they might not want to get mixed up caught in the act of counterfeiting the work of a leading producer of NSDAP approved items. Postwar - who cares??? Nobody.

Gailen, I'm assuming that “If you are saying any of the above then please seek professional help right away before you harm yourself or others.” was meant to be a personal insult it is duly noted.

In the 1950’s regular SA daggers retailed for $20.00 or less? When did Honor daggers (especially the marginal ones) start to get into the ‘upper stratosphere’? Are you telling me the “Gahr” silver fittings are absolutely pre-1945?

And are the “Hühnlein” signatures added post manufacture or not? Do you think the craftsman at Eickhorn were that sloppy? I think you can still buy conventional chain parts, and in years past were very easily obtainable. Used chain sets are and were available etc. etc. All you really needed were the basic daggers, as the workmanship level of the modifications is and was amateurish.

Mustang, You can alloy silver to improve its durability, although daily wear in stressed areas is going to be a problem. Now the question is are the silver fittings 800 grade or something else? When I get a chance I will look at the pictures I have of some of the silver examples to see if the wear is consistent with what it should be. FP

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Ron
If i am not mistaken that Panzer trumpet banner I bought from you ( and returned because it light up like a Christmas tree under a blacklight ) fall into this category ?

quote:
It is obvious that some commenting on this thread haven't purchased too many veteran acquired pieces. So, testimony is something that is not a ploy in this case. It is hard to argue with those involved who brought the item home from the war, although some will never believe the story, regardless of the proof


Brian

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Houston
quote:
Originally posted by Houston Coates:
And what would you guys( you non-believers) know without the reference books and the old guys?
No offense I assume your referring to yourself as one of the old guys ? Since all
the old guys know everything how about telling us how the Schnaufer dagger came to be? http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/...73/m/3260070874/p/11
It it my understanding most of the old guy know this ?
Thank you
Brian

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Paul's 4 points are interesting.. BUT,,,

#4,,forget about that one,,,vested interest, ,they are all either dealers or owners.

#3 - How is it any piece can come about without photos and look the same? *please correct me if I'm mistaken here but thought the photo was showed a few posts back,,and it was close but not exact?

#2 Profit? Where was the profit for the very early pieces? or the 1000's of postwar EK's made for the souvenir hungry soldiers? These were produced for pennies just to satisfy the war booty hungry allied soldiers. Much war booty was even traded for food!, no profit but a full belly [even better].

#1 how different people got them? again, same as different people got bogus EK's,and honor rings etc. long ago, they get spread around..The high end repros were made in the 1950s, yet they travelled the world by the time I started collecting in the mid 70s.

Why couldn't it be the daggers were good but unfinished. The chains added directly postwar by the manufacturer.. Some went to Allied vets,,some gotten after when the 'pioneers'/ Dagger Gurus went to Germany and bought up stock/pieces etc..

- and as far and the Mooney testimony,,re read nickn2 post again!
I'd say the Mooney testimony is more damaging than anything ,,again, please read Mr. Stephens post and let it brew in the head a little.
That testimony is NOT a provenance!

Mr.Ailsby has been around for a while and has seen many a rare high end piece. He and his experts say no chance. So would any 'silver' specialist.

Hey I'm all for the daggers being good. but the chain link,,not happening.......

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For Paul who I think may have missed the original postings, and to help refresh some memories from roughly page 11 (posted Sept. 20th - 21st) of the thread. A very slightly enlarged/enhanced version of the Offermann photo, which was posted by Craig. In this image there does not seem to be a darkened border area present on the upper locket.

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Another showing the center mount, which is not the same. Pointing out the shadows, and different configuration of the mount which is much more pronounced in its height (thickness) at the center. And has more of a "wasp" (narrowed) waist. Also including the image inverted to try and better illustrate the visible characteristics through the use of the fairly noticeable reflected light in the image.

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And the chain links and wide center connector of the Offermann dagger which are also quite different from the “Hühnlein" daggers now in circulation. Including the wide connector itself. The chain links. And noticeably wider (gauge) small wire connector links. FP

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quote:
Originally posted by BDE:
What happened to buy the item not the story ? ?

Brian


I think people find the stories make the items resale a little higher Smile

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Quote:
"Early SS High Leader Honor Dagger Scabbard.
All parts on this post-war assembled scabbard are original, to include the oak leaf embellished nickel-silver fittings, scabbard body, and fine grained black leather. Superb workmanship by Solingen craftsman and longtime employee in the German edged weapons industry. One available. MINT (19503)"

Is the above an ad from the 1950s? Nope! I just copied this from Tom Johnsons current parts list inventory.
Now step back to the 1950s when Atwood and others were buying up surplus dagger stock by the carload. Just about anything imaginable could be assembled and I expect this included honor daggers. One minor problem. If you wanted Gahr silver chain hangers you were on your own and had to have them fabricated.
Is this how some of these honor daggers came about? I certainly don't know and doubt if anyone can say for sure either way. However any relic has to stand on it's own merits and that's the primary issue here.
Jim

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Fred: I apoligize if I offended you. Sometimes I have a big mouth. You are a fine writer.

Gailen David

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I think the add says all. I must add to this we purchase some of these parts and constructed an Honour Dagger from them. This was not rocket sience. The only problem we had was finding a 1936 blade. Bought one, original but this turned out to be a copy. This was from a known expert Dealer. Enough said.

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Amen to Jim M.


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Craig,
You stated," The leader of the NSKK was certainly not worried about silver content markings".
Geez! No disrespect but what kind of statement is that! How in the heck do you know and why would you pretend to know what was running through his mind at any given time? Smile

Can you imagine, I wonder what would’ve happened to a person or company if they had fore-gone Himmler’s sacred and precious silver to make his honor rings with and instead used something else? Would Himmler worry about something like that? I’ll just leave that to everyone’s own imagination. Why would a company risk losing a contract or business knowing full well what the out come could be? Who knows! Anyway, it’s insane for anyone to believe they know what these guys were or were not worried about. We do have indisputable evidence that these guys took some things pretty serious don’t we and we also know they collected some very nice stuff which included “silver items”. Anyway, not trying to harm the positions taken, just attempting to bring up points from both perspectives so that we can move forward. Smile

Let me start by stating, I’ve truly enjoyed this thread and thanks to all. Smile I’m not trying to prove or disprove this cartouche. I’m simply fascinated by these marks and any mark period be it real or fake. I certainly haven't inspected it hands on and pictures are difficult for me to read.

But one thing is for certain; we cannot ignore the fact that the cartouche has a silver fineness mark of 800! It’s screaming, “I’m made of fine silver!” So for the sake of this argument let’s determine if it is in fact made of fine silver and does in fact have a standard of fineness of 800 parts per thousand.
If it’s tested and it is made of .800 fine silver than we should continue with our arguments in whatever direction that may take us… If it's not made of fine silver then there's clearly deception involved, end of story and no more discussion necessary. I’ve seen silver items that have incorporated all sorts of marks onto the items they produced or helped to produce. My point is, if its nickel silver, German silver or anything other than precious medal it should not have a fineness mark period. Smile

It’s frustrating when someone has the answer but refuses to share that information for whatever reason, but I fully understand. Smile I will ask one last time in hopes my question will be answered.
Is it made of .800 fine silver or not? Thank you. Smile

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quote:
Originally posted by BDE:
Houston
quote:
Originally posted by Houston Coates:
And what would you guys( you non-believers) know without the reference books and the old guys?
No offense I assume your referring to yourself as one of the old guys ? Since all
the old guys know everything how about telling us how the Schnaufer dagger came to be?
It it my understanding most of the old guy know this ?
] Thank you
Brian


Brian , why mention the Schnauffer dagger ?
I traced the dagger back to 1968 , when it was owned by a man that now lives in Texas , and I am in contact with this man .
I am still researching the owners before that .

Trust me , the Schnauffer dagger is reall .
Well for me it is , so please dont try to break it down here .
As this forum also did with the Wolf sword .

Obviously you dont know how the Schnauffer dagger came to be .

If you know Stephen Wolf you should call him , since he used to own it also , he can tell you excactly what happened why and how that dagger got his bad reputation .

If everything is researched , I will put a thread up on it .
Together with a big surprise concerning this dagger .

Thank you ,

Rob.

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I don't have an opinion on this dagger one way or another but again..if S Wolfe likes it that is enough for me...not that me being happy has anything to do with it..only Rob needs to be satisfied...none of us..and maybe the next purchaser..if he ever sells it...same with the NSKK high leaders..I will most likely never be able to afford one...so I have the right to my opinion and the right to express it but the only people that need to be happy are those that own them and those that purchase them... .cheers, Ryan

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Mikee, To get the answer to your question is going to require the assistance of someone who owns a silver fitted “Hühnlein" dagger. Owners of same seemingly to be in short supply insofar as this thread is concerned. So I think it probably is never going to be answered.

Ed, To try and answer your questions as best I can: First we have to define whether or not it is period TR production that we are talking about or not, and I am going to mostly confine my remarks to normal period production.

"How many of this type dagger were produced at a time 1-3-7-12 ? Does anyone know ?" Probably not. But typically manufacturers do not like to set up and tear down for repetitive operations, so special orders were most likely made in batches. With the numbers of the “Huhnlein” marked daggers under discussion put at somewhere in the range of 20 plus (?) daggers. With (from memory) one report of about half of them being the “silver” types. I will have to go back and look, but think that I may have pictures of 10 or 11 (?) of all types.

"Did the same German craft's man make all the daggers or were they shop assigned at the request for purchase?" From period photos (and normal industrial practices) different work stations/workers did different operations.

"Was there a standard for fittings or did the recipient change them as he liked? Please don't tell me there were strict standards as High Officials did at times what they wanted. Stepp D. was a perfect example." RHIP, like General George S. Patton with his famous Colt Single Action Army .45 revolvers. The further down the food chain you are, the fewer choices you have. With the fact being that only two primary chain types are seen with the “Hühnlein” daggers indicating limited choices (unless you think that mixed parts/components construction was a part of the package as a different "grade"). FP

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Gailen, Apology accepted, and I have no ill will towards you. I can see that you are frustrated, but IMO the focus should not be on Frederick J. Stephens:

Posted 06 October 2009 ........... “Who cares! I love FJS but this whole thing is his fault and I'm sorry to have seen it happen.”

Rob NL: Posted 30 July 2007 “I know that the big names do like this dagger , and the expert that you are reffering to doesnt like
1; the Wolf sword ,
2; the Schnaufer dagger
3; the Hunlein daggers”
.......................

Presentation Sword to RK Winner

Craig Gottlieb: Posted 01 August 2007...... “I will post photos later of an example that I owned. Mine was in much better shape, and exhibited the regular, NON silver chain. Anyway, it has been suggested by Fred Stephens that all of the NSKK High Leader daggers such as the one posted above are post-war fantasy pieces. I will let Fred explain his theory. Fred is an excellent researcher and will definitely put a good foot forward, and I look forward to his pronouncements about this dagger class. Fred is in the minority for thinking that these are fantasy pieces, but his bravery as an intellectual is noteworthy and admirable. Fred . . . the floor is yours.”

NSKK High Leader

And Posted 14 August 2009: This thread: " NSKK High Leader Debate Is Over" by Craig Gottlieb.

My question being: Why is this Frederick J. Stephen’s fault? Or is it because he did not agree with Craig? Which as far as I can tell was being handled privately until Rob NL for reasons best known to himself, and Craig made it a very public discussion topic. If guys are looking for someone to blame for the potential destruction of the hobby, IMO they don't have to look very far. FP

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Fred you forgot that the 2nd model railway daggers were also doubted .
I am not getting into a debate with you on this subject , I was looking forward to see you , with your motivations at the MAX seminar , but you didnt come .

Just waith for the thread and let the piece stand by its own .
And dont try to break items of due to the person that is selling them .


I am on a good base with FJS , so no need to stir up things as you try to .
But , if you are in New York , let me know , we can discuss it here .
I will let you in on some info .

I didnt want the Huhnlein dagger to be discussed , dont own one yet , I think there overpriced .

So Fred , let me know if we can meet here ,
I am here till Saturday .

But for you also , when you will come to a show , talk to Stephen Wolf .

For that time , let me be with my Wolf sword , and the Schnauffer dagger , I am really happy with them , and thats all that counts Fred.

Greetings from NY ,

Rob.

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quote:
Originally posted by sellick8302@rogers.com:
I don't have an opinion on this dagger one way or another but again..if S Wolfe likes it that is enough for me...not that me being happy has anything to do with it..only Rob needs to be satisfied...none of us..and maybe the next purchaser..if he ever sells it...same with the NSKK high leaders..I will most likely never be able to afford one...so I have the right to my opinion and the right to express it but the only people that need to be happy are those that own them and those that purchase them... .cheers, Ryan


Amen to that Ryan , but I will probably never sell it .

But I respect your opinion .

Greetings from NY ,

Rob.

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Rob, You were not the primary focus of my remarks, which were really intended for Craig, and I intentionally left out the 2nd model Railway Daggers as they were not discussed in any detail in the threads I posted.

As for the MAX show, I’m very sorry that I missed you, but I now have a new daughter in law who besides being very intelligent, and very well educated, is a delight to the eyes. And I could not easily be in two places at once, so I had to make a choice.

Enjoy what you have - from the West Coast.

Best Regards, Fred

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All parts on this post-war assembled scabbard are original, to include the oak leaf embellished nickel-silver fittings, scabbard body, and fine grained black leather. Superb workmanship by Solingen craftsman and longtime employee in the German edged weapons industry.

Thanks for that much Jim. Some of us aren't dagger guys and would have missed this..

I have a old friend that has told me many times one of the dagger gurus have many ,many drawers full of dagger parts in various degrees of condition.. I know I'm a weird one but thats enough for me to not buy a dagger from them. I think Kris has posted on another forum that one of the gurus openly mentioned that switching scabbards and parts are no big deal,,,really? ,is that how it is with the dagger collectors. I'm serious, it really doesn't matter Confused, well O.K .. As long as you guys enjoy them I guess thats all that matters...
I guess the debate is over. ,none of this really matters at all.... Happy hunting.... ,G.

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Gaspare, The swapping of scabbards and handle fittings/componets for the “political” daggers has been going on for almost as long as I can remember. But I think you may have missed the "great handle swapping era" for the military daggers. Which was going on sometime near the time when I first joined as a member. With the different colored handles made of cast phenolic resin being switched out so guys could "dress up" their favorite dagger. It destroyed the historical originality of a lot of daggers. And more than a few dealers used the naturally occurring color changes to charge an extra premium for the daggers they were selling. With some even claiming they were "special factory orders".

Mikee, I have some more photos. But here is a “GAHR" (cast in place marking) - "800” stamped wide connector of a “Hühnlein” blade marked dagger that I think will work as a representative example. With those really weird rectangular or squarish shaped small wire link connectors. The irregular/distorted poorly made small links suggest that the alloy is too soft for its intended application. And the noticeable split where the green arrow is could be from the manufacturing process used, but I think I need to see the inside of the whole link before making a more definitive statement.

I have no explanation as to why these so badly cast silver suspension chain sets escaped a more critical focus of attention to detail. For so many dealers and collectors alike, for as many years as they obviously did. FP

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For comparison: here is a German hallmark from the WURTTEMBERGISCHE METALLWARENFABRIK Company Circa 1900.
Jim

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Jim, This stuff is not rocket science, and with your background in silver collectibles I know that you already know this. But there are I'm certain some, who might not fully grasp all of the significance of what you've posted.

The stamps you posted can be used on a teapot, candelabra, or any other item made from silver. That's what silver makers did. They reused the stamps on what they made until they wore out.

The cast in place fake "GAHR/Crown/Circle-Double Crescent(?)" marks cannot be used for anything else. They can only be used to make more fake "Gahr" wide connectors. This was a one time effort to make a batch of fake parts - with the pattern to be discarded when they ran out of daggers to modify. FP

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an i seeing casting seams inside the holes?

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it does appear to be that,,, Confused

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Parting seams from a rubber mold. There is no doubt that is flash. Lazy clean up.

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for what my oppinions worth i can accept the dagger is genuine but i think the chain and hanger has been added post war perhaps the original was missing ?? hence the poor quality and cast/fake hall marks

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quote:
“for what my oppinions worth i can accept the dagger is genuine but i think the chain and hanger has been added post war perhaps the original was missing ?? hence the poor quality and cast/fake hall marks”

?nickn2, The basic “core” daggers are original, and that has not been an issue, but let’s look at the idea for a moment. I'm not sure if I understand it correctly or not, but under that scenario if I got it right, someone would have to find a “treasure trove” of roughly 1/2 (?) of all the “Hühnlein" daggers that we know about. Fully intact with their nickel silver center mounts. But no chain sets. What do you think the odds are that someone could find all those daggers together in that specific condition? Ready to have just the new manufacture silver chain sets with the fake “Gahr” marks installed?

On October 6th Gailen David said:
quote:
“Not sure I've got this right. What your saying is that someone found a pile of original black leather wrapped honor daggers with Damascus blades after the wars end. They then added the chain and clip. Is that what your saying? Also I'm not sure I understand but are you saying that the reverse inscriptions are post war added? If you are saying any of the above then please seek professional help right away before you harm yourself or others.”


If I’m interpreting it correctly, apparently he does not think it’s possible to assemble such a group of daggers. And suggested that I seek “professional help” (presumably) for even considering the idea.

Any way you look at it IMO a significant counterfeiting/faking operation took place. Which (IMO) has fooled a lot of people for a long time.

PS: They did a little better job of cleanup inside the holes with this one, but look at the square corners of the small connector links. They were not just “lazy” with one aspect of these conversions to “Hühnlein” daggers, it's just one of a number of workmanship issues. FP

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Fred: As hard as you have worked on this I really do hope that you have convinced every collector in the world you are right. Don't agree with you but I do have to respect your diligence on this subject. Your the hardest working in Dagger Land.

Gailen

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gailen
please explain the fake cast hall marks
nick

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Nick: I want too be very scientific with my answer. It is, "the heck if I know,." I wasn't there when they were made.

Gailen

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I will say from every account I heard regarding the Max Debate on this dagger, that the FS group was soundly defeated.

Gailen

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the top mount with cast hall marks cannot be genuine google hall marks or call any european assay office and ask them about cast in hall marks
they are not genuine so the top mount cannot be genuine

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Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! The whole things a big fantasy piece. Lets move on.

Gailen

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Dear Gailen, please how can a fake hallmark be original on a piece? If this be on any other thing the condemnation would be ear shatering. These daggers most probably are original, but with fake chains. The inscription, I am not qualified to assesses this.

Thus your statement, "Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! The whole things a big fantasy piece. Lets move on" is a little ingenuouse. These marks have to be addressed.

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Gailen, this debate has been pretty mature on both sides, up to now.
Request that you reconsider contaminating what is an informative, interesting thread with rapid fire irrelevant, juvenile comments.


Doug
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