UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Edged Weapons Accoutrements Forum Knot Question, Feuerwehr Or Justiz?

Hi all,

I've always been inerested in how the ordinary Feuerwehr knot tarnishes over time to resemble the rare Justiz knot. Many a time I've purchased a bayonet thinking there was a shot the knot wrapped on the frog was really a Justiz piece. The bulb's silver cords tarnish to a beautiful bronze-gold, the silver aluminum threads of the strap also assume a golden hue. Always though there was a spot that hid a secret, an original color of silver. You could usually find this on the strap underneath the slide or if one gingerly exposed one of the bulb cords.

This knot came to me on a fire bayonet but it had a few qualities that distinguished it from the others. Please let me know what you think & whether you think it's a Justiz NCO knot.

As you can see, the strap threads are a beautiful gold. Oddly enough though, the color is evenly distributed, there's no deviation at all.

Here's a view under the slide, also evenly distributed gold threads. This was usually the kiss of death for many of the other knots I thought were a Justiz piece. Sadly, I really couldn't get a picture of the bulb cord pulled back as I needed another arm. The foil inside the stem is tarnished but appears similarly gold color underneath.

Here's the one that really got me, the cat's anus. On all the others, there was a red, carmine, pink or grey dot. The materials were a variety of velvet to a sponge-like honeycomb material. This one has the honeycomb material but in gold. There's no trace of any other color underneath, which was my first thought. I examined it pretty closely & other than some dust, this is all that's there. All others that I had suspected to be Justiz but subsequently turned out to be Feuerwehr always had the carmine type color inside. I'd love to hear anyone's thoughts on it.

Justice knots have gold stems-(the foil under the embroidery) This knot appears to have aluminum foil-Fire Dept. Also it appears that the pink velvet is missing from the dot-IMO nothing unusual there.

Houston,

Are you saying the material in the dot is what usually appears underneath the velvet? I have some with this same material but in carmine which makes me think not all had velvet in the cat's anus.

In person the foil appears gilted & consistent with the metallic threads in the strap, unlike all others I've seen.

I don't know what is under the velvet. The stem on the Justice is very bright gold and does not look the same as nicotine/tarnish etc. I would have to see the knot-sometimes the colors on photos do not depict correctly at all.
Most fire knots that are original to the piece are set/frozen in place around the frog-tied in the police style--so that is another clue.

I thought I had snapped a picture of this knot's tie but I neglected to do so. This tie is in what I believe to be the military tie as opposed to the Police tie. This knot did come to me on a Feuerwehr bayonet but not frozen in place. On that subject I've found FW bayonets with knots in both types of tie.

I think what I'l try to do is gingerly clean/swap a small segment near the bulb without disturbing the mesh around the foil. That may be dispositive. The thing that caught me off guard on this one was the overall consistency of the gold coloring, all the others I've seen that exhibited tarnish/nicotine patina were all unevenly so.

Better picture of the foil underneath the mesh on the slide. Definitely tarnished but really appears gilted underneath, albeit not brightly.

Better shot of the cat's anus, no trace of carmine velvet.

Billy G, my justice knot has a clear carmine red wired "cat�s anus" (see scan).
IMO you have here a fire pp portepee. The gold color of portepees is rather distinct to your�s which looks to me like "normal" patinated silver color. A red background for photographing might enhance the impression of gold even when there is none.
Regards,

The whole knot.

A patinated silver stem (foil) sometimes might look golden but a patinated gold stem does look more copperlike.

Hi Wotan,

Thanks for the pictures of your knot. I agree that the red background increased the gold hue of the knot & it's features. This one looks gold even with a white background. I'll get a chance this week to snap some pics against white & I'll post them. I'll also try to show a comparison of this one to some others in the collection.

I have a couple of FW knots with the velvet nearly gone to moths. It's either wood or a carton like paper underneath on those. I doubt the twisted wire 'anus' would have been used as a backer for velvet intentionally.

If anyone is interested I have a Justice Knot on the "For Sale" Forum.

Horst

Have had a couple Emails indicating that they could not find the "For Sale" ad on GD, guess it went over the 30 day limit.
Here is a link reflecting the Justice Knot.
http://www.militariacollecting.com/index.php?showtopic=62910

Horst

hi i am lucky i have 2 pink anuses,or is that anie, 1 came with the sword the other i wish did,can anyone tell me which is right or wrong,swords are not me but i love this one got it from jersey ,may i ask a question how do we know which is the correct knot for this sword is there a period picture,is a knot in a cata logue or is this the example most seen on rare justice official swords.
still the diplomatt

hi here are the knots ,knot to be confused with the other knots,which knot is knot the right knot because i do knot want the wrong knot ,knot having the right knot is knot the way to go,swords are knot my subject but knot having the right knot detracts from the sword,the knot if knot correct will be for sale as it does knot desreve to be on the correct sword,in fact if found to be incorrect in the words of shakespere to be or knot to be will be the answer,i feel i have helped to sort this one out...... maybe knot,well i am tie..rd now so of to sort myself out.cos i feel all tied up in knots.
diplomatt


anyone who tells me to get knotted is just rude