UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SA & NSKK Dagger Forum NSKK High Leader Debate Is Over

I’m not a silver markings specialist myself, although I can say that those on the daggers look nothing like those on the silver hilted SS “Birthday” swords. That said, unless someone is claiming expertise, I don’t know how fruitful it is to pursue the matter. Unless of course they are stating the Hühnlein dagger markings are genuine based on some as yet undisclosed factor.

Mr. Stephens checked in briefly to the thread, but did not go into any real detail from his perspective at least as far as I know. From what I have heard a significant portion of the time seems to have been allocated for other business than a direct discussion.

And I don’t know if it would have made a difference with the panel or not. But I think that a 20 minute or so Powerpoint presentation, using a lot of the material from both threads, would have at least given the audience some food for thought. Which is the approach I think I would have taken, with a substantial focus on the silver chain versions of the daggers.

quote:

Fred: As hard as you have worked on this I really do hope that you have convinced every collector in the world you are right. Don't agree with you but I do have to respect your diligence on this subject. Your the hardest working in Dagger Land. Gailen

Gailen, What can I say? It’s been a long and for me very interesting 2 year journey with a very large break in the middle. I thought the topic was long dead, gone, and buried back in 2007.

Not so, and here we are. Regards, Fred

As Mikee asked 2 or 3 times,have the suspect chains tested for their silver content.its quite a simple test.that will give an answer to half the question, nats

Doug: What can I do? That's all I have is irrelevant, juvenile comments. You've got to work with the skill that were dealt you. Do have a little experience with daggers over the last 45 years. But what do I know?

Gailen

Doug: You are right I should refrain from commenting. But wait! Did you ever think that maybe a little humor no matter how irrelevant and juvenile might be good? Especially considering the seriouness of the subject. If you don't like my comments I would recommend that when you see my name on a post you just don't read it. You know it is going to be something stupid that will add nothing to the discussion. That's what i'm here for.

Gailen

I have nothing against comic relief.
"Hey hey, yeah yeah, yadda yadda" didn't exactly have me busting a gut, but thats just me.
Was expressing an opinion, which is my perfect right to do.

You call to "let it rest", if others are not inclined to heed that advice, who are you to tell them otherwise ?

The matter seems in the process of being thrashed out in an orderly manner, I just don't see the need for intrusions which don't contribute anything, pro or con ,,, But if you feel the need, I'm sure you won't feel constrained by my [now publicly stated] opinion on the matter.

Doug: I'm sure, as you proved, no one is stopping because of little old me. It's kind of like a crime scene where the police say "move along, nothing to see here." They never listen. So continue. Oh! I never stated my humor was good and since it is, as you said, "irrelevant and juvenile," why would it be? But I'm amused and that's all that counts.

Gailen

Historica sold one of these today for 35000 Euros.

So someone has upped the anti...

Regards

whilst i dont have gailens experience with daggers i do know quite a bit about silver collecting and selling it for nearly 40 years but if anyone has any doubts that the hall marks are fake just google german silver hall marks go to a good site and take a look or post the photo of the marks on a silver collectors forum and see what they say
i accept the dagger for the most part is genuine but i believe the silver hangers were added post war

Question: Are all of the marks on the silver- version of the chain, identically placed? Although I have no issues with the silver chain, I would like to know, as it may inform a theory I have which explains the crude silver chain markings.

Craig, I emplore you to see what silver marking is. They will always be punched in. If they are but makers marks they can be cast into the designe, if this be the case they will stand proud of the designe. When you are next here, I will take you to see the Master of Goldsmith hall. These marks are not correct. Thus as much as you or Bobby MCgEE WANT THEM TO HAVE SOME VALIDITY, PLEASE DO DOT FALL FOR CANUTASISUM.

Craig,
That's why I asked you those questions and you must first answer them. "Quid pro quo"
I will tell you this much. Their isn't a problem with the manufacture or maker marks incorporated into their wares.
Your turn!

quote:

"Question: Are all of the marks on the silver- version of the chain, identically placed? Although I have no issues with the silver chain, I would like to know, as it may inform a theory I have which explains the crude silver chain markings."

Craig, The markings don’t exist on any other known period object (besides the “Hühnlein” daggers), or in any period or post war documentation. And they are cast in place not stamped, and I have issues with the chain and small wire connector links as well. The previously posted pictures show what happened - but if you like they can be reposted.

PS: By any chance does this 'theory' for the silver chain sets involve molten silver being poured directly into rubber molds?? FP

Fred, if you had actual experience with these daggers, you'd know that "Huhnlein" is not engraved, but acid etched. If you had experience studying investment casting, you'd know that molten wax, not molten metal, is poured into molds (I too made this error when I first started studying investment casting). My question was simple: are the casting marks on the cartouche-style clip (the type pictured in the Offermann photo), identically placed on all the examples you've seen photos of?

craig if they are those mounts are fake to
just call a german assay office or search on line for german hall marks you just cannot get genuine cast ones of any period

Craig:
For whatever you think it's worth at this point there is no such thing as cast hallmarks on genuine European silver. Not then and certainly not now.
I can't believe after the evidence presented regarding European hallmarking requirements than anyone would even try to rebut this now.
The marks on the chains of those "Huhnlein" daggers were bad when they were made,are bad now and will continue to be bad until hell freezes over.
Nothing you or anyone else can say will change that.
Jim

quote:

Fred, if you had actual experience with these daggers, you'd know that "Huhnlein" is not engraved, but acid etched. If you had experience studying investment casting, you'd know that molten wax, not molten metal, is poured into molds (I too made this error when I first started studying investment casting). My question was simple: are the casting marks on the cartouche-style clip (the type pictured in the Offermann photo), identically placed on all the examples you've seen photos of

Craig, Hands on no, but I’ve had enough experience with fakes in general, to recognize some of the telltale signs of a fake when I see it. Please take a look at page 8 of the thread. Because while during the time when these blades were being modified into ersatz (variant) “Hühnlein” signature marked blades, they could have been subsequently acid treated to try and camouflage the signs of mechanical engraving. "Acid etching" by itself does not account for the 3D nature of the signatures at right angles to the blade “grain”. Page 8

At one time we used to manufacture precision investment casting equipment. And I still have one brother who owns a company that makes precision investment castings. So I know more about precision investment castings than you might think. And, in case you’ve forgotten, elsewhere it was reported that in your book it says rubber molds were used.

As to the placement of the fake markings they are in the same relative locations and same orientations. With the original fake cast ”800” marks mostly obliterated by an individually done # “8” hand stamp, and a # “0” hand stamp repeated twice. FP

BTW: The Offermann type of wide connector (and chain set) are different. See: Page 11

Actually there are cast hallmarks on European silver. Illegal? Yes! .. Unlawful? Certainly! but do they exist?... Yes!

An Item for thought: Much has been made in this thread of the existing laws in Germany and their impact on hallmarks. There were also laws against most things done regularly by the government of the day. miss-use of hallmarks pales by comparison to most others.

Dave

Good casting with no discernible pinholes see above. Bad casting with numerous pinholes/pockmarks, and relatively crude very poorly defined cast in place markings, see below.

PS: The numbers "8" "0" "0" don't count, as they are individually hand stamped, using two hardware store variety individual number stamps.
FP

Dave Hohaus:
What you posted is actually pure BS. Fake hallmarking is and was rare in Europe then as it is today and I suspect you know better. In 50 years of examining many silver hallmarks I can count the number of fake examples I've seen on one hand and I wouldn't need all my fingers.
You,and others,can continue to blow smoke over this thread in an attempt to explain away a major problem with these "Huhnlein" daggers; but I doubt in any responsible members,and particularly those members from Europe familiar with hallmarking regulations, of the collector community will buy it.
Jim

I'm not trying to offend anyone, but how hard can it be to figure out that the markings are fake?

Or is there a group of collectors or others, that thinks that the Gahr firm of Munich could not even afford to purchase the standard one piece "800" stamps? That were used repeatedly, on a dally basis, to mark the items being manufactured. Like we see with everything else made by Gahr with the 800 markings during that period.

And instead went to their local hardware store. To buy some individual number stamps to use to make the three stampings needed. That are seen only on these supposedly high quality "Hühnlein" daggers (I'm referring here to the workmanship (or more specifically the lack of workmanship) of the modifications - not the basic "core" daggers).

FP

Not only are "cast" hallmarks fake (you don't need 50 years in the hobby to know that), but the examples shown by FP show "cast lines" and the quality is sooo bad that I can't believe anyone can believe otherwise.

Here is image taken of a special SS 1936 chained Honor Dagger. Taken from Tom Johnson's Pictorial Series.
Note the quality of the center scabbard mount.

-serge-

Here is a image of the reverse of link on the same dagger denoting .800 Silver hallmarks - which are stamped as they should be. If they were cast they would be fradulent.



Say what you want about the dagger...I actually like the "look" of Craig's new Huhnlein but the chain assemblies on some of these Super-rare daggers that seem to be poping up recently all over the world, is "Out There".

-Serge-

!7 pages trying to justify junk speaks for itself Atwood must laughing his XXXX off

dave
as has been explained they are not hall marks but part of the cuff links design
hall marks can only be put on to percious metal items by a government controled assay office they are never cast in to an item this has been against european rules for hundreds of years
to confirm what i am saying is true just call or email any assay office
nick

Dear Dave, as to your statement,"An Item for thought: Much has been made in this thread of the existing laws in Germany and their impact on hallmarks. There were also laws against most things done regularly by the government of the day. miss-use of hallmarks pales by comparison to most others." In Great Britain, this missuse is taken extreemly seriously. Under the law, this is classed as Treason. I am sure this is not wasted on you. The penalty is death, or inc****ration at the Tower. The latter being the more appropreat. I have a fine Victorian laddel. Been in the Family some 140 years. It has a very interesting mark, an incused Beaver. I took it to be valued and the mark explained. I found that I was in serrious trouble if I sent this to the Assay office. It was a fraudulent mark, circa 1880, that was giving the impression that it was Canadian silver!

In your country, the selling and making of the Medal of Honour is regerously prosecuted. Might I paraphrase you and state, there were also laws against most things done regularly by the government of the day. miss-use of medals pales by comparison to most others.So the US authorities will do nothing.

But back to the marking, trade mark infringement is concidered a great crime, hence Mac Donald Tous R Us fight court cases, and provale. Germany in the Nazi perriod was no different. I have two items produced by the Garr firm for the SS, one in white metal has the mark incorporated, the second produced in silver has the same mark stamped in and the 800 clearly stamped.

The Honour Goblet like wise is marked, and marked clearly with the silver mark, these are not sloppy or cast into the piece.


The main point is, these marks are sperious. This dose not make the dagger a fake, but it dose show that the piece has been altered by their addition.

If these marks were put on, I can assure you it wasn't by Atwood. I do know what he put togeather and parts he had made such as the center bands for the parts NSKK chained daggers.

Gailen

Serge, Like a beauty contest, personal taste is (obviously) very subjective. If I had to vote for the best “look” my choice would be this one on Craig’s web site.

In fact if the discussion had started with it and not gone astray, instead of that sorry example Numero Uno, the discussion might not have gotten very far. Not only does it have a chain set that IMO looks like less of a parts piece than the Grüner dagger (much less these fake “Gahr” chain sets). The signature, while machine done, and not perfect with some obvious "issues". I think looks closer to what an actual signature would or should look like instead of that overdone ‘engraver run amok’ look of the Grüner dagger.

But to each his own, and if all we are talking about are aesthetics, differences are to be expected. FP

The Grüner dagger blade.

Yes...Looks are subjective. I also like the "look" of this Huhnlein that Jim m. posted. It has the raised signiture applied with a gold gilt as does the motto.
And look at high-relief chain! Not to mention the quality center scabbard mount!

-serge-




Funny thing, On other dedication/presentation daggers we're told that the dedication on the reverse of the blade should be the same depth, and burnish tone as the obverse motto. - since the technique used would have been the same and applied at the same time. - Jim's dagger seems to follow that. What happened to these other Huhnleins?- Hummmm.

Serge:
I wouldn't mind owning that dagger myself but I was just sent the photos and asked NOT to disclose who the current owner is. I will see If I can get some more pictures and if i do i will post them here.
Jim

Nick, Christopher, et al,

Why would a cast hallmark imply that it was made at any particular time?

"cast hallmark" is an oxymoron.
Jim

it does not it just means the fakers could not send the fake item to an assay office to be assayed and stamps as it was made after the time it was supposed to have been
if i made a art deco style salt and sent it for assay it would have a set of hall marks for 2009 not 1930 say
there have never ever been cast hall marks they are always and have always been stamped

Dave, hallmarks are serious thing for every country no matter what the time period is.. They were like an approval stamp,a stamp to guarantee the precious metal in it is at least that of the stamp..
As far as the marks on the link. They are not even German marks.. Check any of the silver forums. , and even the 1800's German law document that was posted earlier. quarter moon, and crown..
Well there are different types of crown, circlets, coronet. Imperial state etc. The crown on the link is almost a dead ringer of the Swiss and Finnish crown markings [circlet],,it clearly is not what it should be - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_State_Crown

FPs comments on the content stamp is also dead on. There was never separate numbers for the content stamp. If 800 it got stamped once, 800,,not 3 times 8-0-0 that is ridiculous.. Again this is a dagger site. The dagger some seem to like. But go to any silver site and they will confirm 100% about the content die stamp and the markings for Germany..

So the links we know aren't period. The dagger itself,,well that's up to you experts. .

Damn! I guess the one stamped "Paul Revere" I obtained from a vet is not right either. Before you say it I'll say it for you. "what an idiot!"

Gailen

Over the weekend I took another look at the first thread to see if there were some things that could agreed upon by all. What I found when I reread it, only made me want to question some of the statements made in both threads.

Craig Gottlieb Posted 01 August 2007 ........ “I am starting a thread ........ 2) NSKK Honor Daggers have two types of chains. Either an 800 silver chain that is unique to these pieces, or a standard-looking NSKK chain. Both chain configurations exhibit a very unique looking center scabbard fitting." Posted 01 August 2007 ......“Here is the upper chain clip - very unique configuration ...... and the presence of Gahr Munich silver stamps (which are always poorly stamped on these pieces)” etc. etc. which has already been fairly well gone over.
?
Jason Burmeister Posted 02 August 2007 “The base features of the Chained NSKK High Leader are identical to all Honor daggers produced by Eickhorn during the period with the exception that the reverse of the blade exhibits a stylized signature of Hunlein, the NSKK Korpsfuher. A unique feature of this pattern is the two styles of chains. The nickel chain is basically identical to that found on the model 36 and the 800 silver differs in that the upper connecting device is void of a clip. Instead the silver example is produced to accommodate the short leather hanger typically encountered on the 33 pattern political daggers. The center scabbard band on both is nickel. A few examples have had the upper device on silver chains period modified to incorporate an upper clip similar to the nickel example. Of the modified examples examined no two are alike.”

Which it seems are some as yet unseen versions of the "Hühnlein" daggers. At first I thought it sounded like some of the "mixing and matching" of parts - as seen currently with some of the daggers. But the "no two are alike" description (without some pictures), I'm afraid will have to be one of many, many, "mysteries" of the "Hühnlein" daggers.

Craig Gottlieb Posted 04 September 2009 23:32 “I am ALL FOR a discussion of this dagger type at the MAX show, and will be glad to provide anything by way of contribution to the topic. Regarding the "ugliest NSKK" competition: myself and two other dealers purchased one from a guy who rode into the Kassel show on a bicycle, about 3 years ago. It was void of any scabbard, and the blade was slightly less "holey" than swiss-cheeze. It was truly awful, and I'm glad I don't have a picture of it! ........

Craig Gottlieb Posted 02 August 2007 “One last comment for the time being, as I am on the way out of town. About 2 years ago, myself and Jason Burmeister, and Brian Maederer purchased a very poorly-conditioned example of this dagger at one of the large German shows (I can't remember if it was Kassel or Stuttgart). The gentleman we purchased it from is a well-known picker in Germany that we have all done business with before. He told us that the family he bought it from discovered it in the attic of a barn in Bavaria. I know this is only 2nd hand knowledge from us, but it is important and relevant testimony.” (That’s a long way to pedal a bike unless he just sat around in Kassel (or Stuttgart) waiting for things to come to him. And it would seem that he just wasn't some “random guy” who went to a show.) FP

NSKK 2007 thread

While earlier I made reference to page 8 of the thread, another closer look at a “Hühnlein” dagger blade posted on Craig’s web site might be helpful as a learning experience.

In the image the “OP” refers to the ‘overpass’ analogy I used on page 8. With the “L/S” referring to the rather unusual appearance of what visually looks like starts and stops of the (machine engraved) signature at the indicated locations.

If Craig or any of the “Hühnlein” dagger proponents has a logical explanation for why these phenomena proves they were acid etched instead of engraved. It will have my full attention and I would like to hear it. FP

Without the notations.

Most admittedly this is from a present day English language source and relates to ‘Sterling’ silver. Here is what a typical small jewelers stamp looks like - for those who I have to assume are not familiar with them. Not terribly expensive (under $20.00), with a very long life span. FP
Stamp Link

Decree January 7, 1886
and several other silver marks some earlier. But several nice images and it also has link to click on for the Decree. I'm such a newbie at the markings but really the quality does stand out in most photos shown in those pages. I know that the big collectors and 99% of all collectos think this is all ok but I cant be counted in them. just too many questions and red flags and thats the bottom line on how I collect. I guess those who own these or wish to puchase just be happy with them, 'bout all I can say. I own a H/J long bayonet purchased out of the woods for 95 bucks no body made "big" money on it and the diamond is correct and placed nice but that does not make it real just something I enjoy.
Bret Van Sant