UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories SS & SA Uniform Forum Totenkopf Badge

I had always been under the impression this badge was a copy as it differed from other M1/52 badges I understood to be genuine. Reading a few of the posts that mention the number of variants from this manufacturer I thought I would post it to see if I was in error condemning this piece.
Derek
Front:

Rear. The mottled colour is caused by some form of oxidation it isn't pitted although it does appear to look that way.

Derek,
I was hoping some one far knowledgable than I would butt in and give their views on your skull,but not wishing to see a fellow collector be ignored,,,,in my limited knowledge on these the m1/52 Iv encountered are of later alloy or pot metal construction with differant elongated welds to the pins and the left nostril is slightly lower and yours lacks definition around the mouth area and teeth.
Isnt there something about the droopy 5 on these that are reproduction ? Sorry I cant be more helpful. We had an excellant thread awhile ago that disapeared called Skull School,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Hi Derek,

I would have a few concerns on this one which I have highlighted.

1. The ridges above the eyes looks very sharp and the eye sockets appear to have extra casting material in them.

2. There should be a "ridge" under this eye not an indentation.

3. There should be some vertical grooves between the teeth and the nose socket where your one appears smooth.

I will post two of mine an early Cupal version and a later zinc version so you can see these differences.

Cupal

Zinc

The TK which started this thread is clearly a cast fake.

I also have some concerns about your CupAl, Tony, but that could just be due to the image quality. Would you mind posting a higher resolution image and, perhaps, a shot of the reverse?

Brad

Many thanks to Hooper, TonyS and bwanek for pitching in. You have confirmed my negative opinions about this badge.
Derek

Hi Brad,

The best I can offer is this link.

SS Skulls

What do you find odd about it?

Looks like a standard Ges Gesch (without the periods) Deschler to me (and to Chris M too).

Hello.show up mine variant of m1/52....die stamped skull..opinion..?

1

quote:

Originally posted by TonyS:
Looks like a standard Ges Gesch (without the periods) Deschler to me (and to Chris M too).

Tony,

As we were talking about the fake M1/52 which started this thread, I thought you were offering this one as a CupAl M1/52, which it is clearly not. I am not certain why you would offer something other than an M1/52 on this thread for comparison. Since this one has several differences from an M1/52, it really doesn't help serve as a proper contrast with the fake M1/52.

Regardles, I have to admit that, until now, I was unaware of the existance of a "GES GESH" Deschler. I am only familiar with the "D.&S.M. GES.GESCH." Deschler and the "GES. GESH." Assmann. Robin is certainly an authority on TKs and I greatly respect his expertise, but I was also hoping to see a response from Chris. I didn't see his comments on the thread you showed.

Brad

Whoa there Brad - you are reading way too much into it that was not intended. Sorry if you got that impression. I just wanted to illustrate an early and late Deschler. Not get into a debate on the finer differences. The basic design is the same and good enough for this purpose - at least in my opinion.

Chris has been banned from this forum for good. I tried to get him reinstated some time back but neither Dave nor Vern would agree to it. However, I believe Chris no longer wants to return now anyway.

The GES GESH with and without the periods are both legitimate Deschler marks. According to Chris the ones with the periods are the rarest of all the skulls from all the makers. I have not seen one myself.

Here is the most up-to-date list I have of the types made:

Skulls:

GES.GESCH. Deschler & Sohn
GES GESCH (no periods) Deschler & Sohn
RZM D.&S.M. GES.GESCH. Deschler & Sohn
RZM 52 Deschler & Sohn
RZM M1/52 Deschler & Sohn
RZM 254/42 Deschler & Sohn
RZM 499/41 Fritz Zimmermann
RZM M1/24 Overhoff & Cie.
GES.GESCH. E. W. Assmann & Sohn
S.P.40 Unknown (Overhoff?)

Eagles:

RZM M1/52 Deschler & Sohn
RZM SS 155/36 E. W. Assmann & Sohn
RZM SS 155/42 E. W. Assmann & Sohn
RZM M1/72 Fritz Zimmermann
RZM SS 499/42 M1/72 Fritz Zimmermann
RZM SS M1/167 Augustin Hicke
RZM M1/8 Ferdinand Wagner
RZM 394-35 Unknown

Most valuble information Tony to anyone contemplating/studying these insignia's.
Many thanks for posting Stephen

Tony,

I spend most of my time on the WAF and I normally only visit this forum occasionally, so somehow I missed what happened with Chris. I don't intend to involve myself with that issue, whatever it was, but I will say that this forum will suffer for the loss of his expertise in metal insignia.

As I mentioned earlier, this is the frst I have ever heard of a GES GESH Deschler (with or without the periods). I am not saying they don't exist by any means, just that I am a little surprised that I never saw them discussed on this or the other forum before. However, I was enlightened regarding the existence of M1/24 eagles not too long ago and these may be the same.

As for your list, mine is slightly different. Obviously, mine doesn't include the GES GESH Deschlers. It does, however, include some others which I am fairly certain are now accepted by most as originals (including the M1/24 eagle), as well as a couple which remain in question (which are noted as "UNCONFIRMED").

I am interested in your thoughts regarding these additions. I would also be very interested in any other references you have to the GES GESH Deschlers.

Thanks,
Brad

show up mine eagle E.S-P.F(copper plated alumin and silvered) Skull S.P.40(Bare aluminium)

b

Hi Brad,

Looks like we are working from the same list but I admit my one is probably out of date. I was hoping someone would post a more up-to-date list. I must have missed any discussions on some of those newer ones on your list.

I'm surprised you don't have the Deschler Ges Gesch skulls on your list. However, I'm sure you can check with Chris on those.

RZM 499 - nice collection you have. Could you post a closer shot of the back of the eagle?

a new pic.enjoy.

M1/17 is a good mark , so you can confirm that one.

back

close up

Another

quote:

Originally posted by ksfinley:
M1/17 is a good mark , so you can confirm that one.

Yes, it is a good mark for eagles, but is it for skulls? Please note that on my list the "UNCONFIRMED" is for the skull, not the eagle, which is not in question.