UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons The BCN Bayonet Forum Luft Forestry Scabbard Question

Hi All,

I have a quick question regarding the Luftwaffe Forestry bayonet's scabbard. Is there any difference between a Luft Forestry scabbard & a standard KS98 scabbard? Specifically I'm interested in the screw &/or finish. I've seen some that seem to have a flat headed screw as opposed to the usually seen dome headed screw on KS98s. Also, were the scabbards usually blued finish or lacquered?

Thanks much

The scabbard and the blade of a Luft Forestry piece are NOT the same as a Dress Bayonet.
The shape, finish and taper are just enough different to make trading of parts impossible.
Ron Weinand

Ron,

Many thanks for the quick reply. I got one in the mail that I thought might have had a more standard scabbard swapped out. I noticed that the ricasso on the Luft Forestry bayonet appears thicker than the usual scabbard throat would accommodate. I'll try to post a pic or two in a bit.

If you will compare the blade in the Forestry piece with a standard short dress bayonet, you will notice that the end of the blade's midline has a slight up curve that is not present on the midline swedge of the dress bayonet blade.
Also, the end of the Forestry blade is more tapered than the bayonet's blade.
The scabbard sides have a more sleek taper and the tip is a little different from the bayonet scabbard.
The Forestry blade is a natural polished finish that has fine crossgraining and is not chromed like the bayonet blade.
JMO,
Ron Weinand

Ron,

Here's the best I could do on scabbard pictures. The blade is identical to all the originals I've seen, well marked & well crossgrained. The scabbard does appear to have the taper you refer to, more sloped than the other scabbards I have laying around here. The throat is unusually shaped IMO, much wider at one end. Presumably to accept the wide spine?

Sorry but I don't agree that all the original scabbards for these pieces are the same and that they are all distinctive from a regular KS 98 dress scabbard. Since there is no catalog photo it is impossible to tell IMO--and I doubt they were made in house by the bayo manufacturer.I have seen several different scabbards and they all fit perfectly. For example,some have sold brass frog studs-some do not. I certainly would not refuse one of these in fine condition just because the scabbard was one way or another. Some also believe that all WKC KS 98's should have slim frog studs. Many do but do they all? Is it that important? IMO we will never know for sure. Would you refuse a fine one because of the scabbard? IMO many times we tend to nit pick just a bit too much.
Also-the fact is we don't even know for sure its even for Forestry. I have never seen even a bit of proof for that.

Here's a shot of the frog lug & dome headed screw. The runners appear internally riveted & not attached to the throat.

Here's a better shot of the obverse scabbard. Can I presume that these bayonets won't fit the majority of KS98 scabbards out there?

Thanks for your thoughts.

I know that there are a couple of different Luft Forestry Knives that don't fit the norm as Houston states, but these are not the ones that are usually found. You would have to judge the piece on the blade rather than the scabbard.
I would not reject one of these knives based on just the scabbard itself.
I just gave you my impressions of what you normally see in these knives.

Thanks Ron,

I have no doubts about the knife itself. While I haven't handled a ton of these, this one exhibits all the attributes you've mentioned in addition to having the look & feel of being together for 70 years. I think my fear was that the knife was legit with a potentially swapped out scabbard.

While I don't know that they're much to look at in pictures, I really find them appealing in hand. Great slabs of stag & a super blade with some dagger-like crossgraining. Kinda combines some nice facets of both daggers & bayonets in one piece.

Actually, they are a very well made knife. Much nicer that a dress bayonet and very well made.
Nice hit for you.
Ron Weinand

Hi Billy!

Nice addition to your collection. How much do these usually sell for? I have to admit I have not come across one as of yet.

JAN

Thanks Ron, I'm pretty happy with it. I liked these pieces a while ago & never jumped on one & am sorry I waited so long. I managed to gingerly get the bolts out to get a look under the grip plates. Nothing much under there but I was curious if there was any rust working it's way out. I completely agree with your comments on the overall construction & finish of this type bayonet, it's something impressive & very noticeable with the grip plates removed. No wonder it's so heavy, the one piece hilt is very thick. The blade finish too, all combined in an understated but beautiful form. Thanks for your thoughts, I feel better about the thing as a whole.

Jan,

I'm no expert on these pieces but I do see them anywhere from $700 to over $1000 & more depending on condition & of course the seller. These pieces are much more impressive in hand, much nicer than my poor pics would say. It's a quality edged weapon & something I believe you'd want if ever you came across one.

Nice pick up. I don't have one of those yet. I've never even held one. I'm still waiting to find one for my price. It may be a while. Looks text book to me even tho there's not much info on these.

Steve.

Here's mine..

Obverse

Stampings on blade

Waffen Loesche

stag handle reverse

Stag handle obverse.

This knife fits into both my knife/bayonet collection and my Luftwaffe dagger collection.

John

hi i have had 3 of these and upgraded to this one,they all had a variation,in fact i sold the last one on gdc,this has a forrestry style frog hard to tell if it is original or altered,it also has a date of 1935/ 38 ,a maker otto kobersiem and a date of 1935,initials stamped in ,bsf ,and roman numerals 3 and 1,the knot has a plastic strap,this came out of the woodwork.maybe the info on the frog means something to one of our experts.what do you think.
dippy

q

w

r

2

4

Dear Billy,
The photographs I am adding to your form are of the two blades that I have in the area of discussion. The first has a dark brown frog and the blade reads WAFFEN-LOESCHE BERLIN on the front side and Ch. A.W. on the reverse and the capital letter H in a Roman style letter on the side. I am adding the second blade that has the Eickhorn stamped trade mark as it has listed on the paper tag as LUFTWAFFE NON-COMISSIONED OFFICER DRESS SIDE ARM. A blade like the first one is listed in Johnson volume 7 page 337 as the LUFTWAFFE Dress Sidearm carried by Portebee-bearing Luftwaffe Non-Commissioned office personal assigned to specialist units including Forestry Service units. It also shows a picture of an airman that carried such a bayonet. I believe he is in a glider uniform.
Sincerely,
HUBERTUS

Photograph #1

Photograph #2

Photograph #3

Photograph #4

Photograph #5.

Has anyone ever determined what the Ch.a.w. stamping means???

There are those that believe that "Ch" stands for Chromolit, a trade name for "A.W." Arthur Wingen. Waffen Loesche was a distributor in Berlin.

John, Dippy & Hubertus,

Thanks much for showing your beauties. I'm interested if you guys have had your grip plates off & if there were any markings underneath. My buddy Jim Maclean has an Alex Coppel marked Luft Forestry which had what appeared to be Waffen Ampt stampings underneath the grip plates.

Don,

I've heard the Wingen/Chromolit connection for years now but recently read it in Anthony Carter's book. With the Ch.A.W. mark on these bayonets, I'm thinking it's a lot more plausible
since there was a connection between Anton Wingen's son Arthur & Chromolit.

Does the Coppel bayonet have the Ch.A.W. stamping??

Barry,

Yes it does, the obverse has the Ch.A.W. & the reverse is marked with Alex Coppel over the scales over Solingen. It is not distributor marked Waffen Loesche as all the others I've seen are.

From my observation, the Ch.A.W. was larger than it appears on others & the blood groove was slightly wider without the distinctive swedge that is normally seen on a Luft Forestry bayonet. Initially I might have thought the piece to be a standard KS98 from Alcoso that was tarted up to look like a Luft Forestry except for the fact when taken down, the Alcoso has the same unique hilt/crossguard/blade one piece construction that Waffen Loesche pieces have.

If you'd like to see pics of it, I would suggest you check this link from WAF, if you're a member there. I did a quick search of GD's threads & Jim's original 2004 no longer exists, lost to eternity like so many other threads.

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t...hlight=luft+forestry

Billy, interesting that the Coppel piece has the Ch.A.W.stamp. I wonder if Wingen made these for other firms because the volume wasn't enough to warrant their own production. Another one of those questions we may never have an answer for. Regardless, they are impressive items.

Barry,

Good possibility Alcoso made it in some sort of collaboration with Wingen/Chromolit. I myself thought the Alcoso might have been a prototype that just didn't result in a contract. Either way, something we'll probably never know the answer to.

Here's a shot of the one piece construction of the hilt & blade with the stag grip plates taken down. What's noticeable when held is that these pieces are made with very heavy steel. What's also nice & so unusual to see on a bayonet is the beautiful crossgraining which is visible in this shot.

Stag grip plates that are just great. I'm sorry I waited so long to get one

Well I'm still waiting.

These are really great blades. Not that easy to find anymore that are complete and nice.
Congrats Guys!

Regards,
-serge-

quote:

Originally posted by TKissinger:
Well I'm still waiting.

Me too!

Billy I hope one day we can meet in person and become true friends .

Things are hectic at the moment so I'm a little pushed to take any new photos of the Coppel. I hope to get some up in the next few days.

Unfortunately, flying in the face of convention it was made in the same manner as dress bayonets unlike the Waffen-Loesche items.

Pictures, I know cannot do full justice to a piece but this one just looks right and feels right - to me anyway. If I remember correctly when I first brought this one up Houston did not dismiss it.

On a personal level I don't subscribe to it being a sample piece, not with a serial number of 156! I also believe the Ch.A.W. to indicate the unit rather than Chromolit Anton Winger as it's stamped like the serial rather than etched like the logo.

The Waffenamt to keep you interested.

Jim,

Good to hear from you & very happy you chimed in on this piece. I was going to shoot you an email about the thread but you beat me to the punch, well done. From the pics you sent me a few years ago, I remember the piece being very credible looking & something I would have loved to pick up, if only for the oddity factor. But to memory it was a quality made piece & beautiful either assembled or disassembled.

I do hope we meet one day, your side of the pond or mine. I think we'd have a lot to talk about

It's wonderful to see so many of these fascinating and enigmatic sidearms in one thread, I hope more will be forthcoming. Perhaps a list of serial numbers? Makers/distributors are thin on the ground .

I've managed to locate the original pics I took and will post them. I'd be happy to take any further pics that are needed though for obvious reasons I'm loathe to take it apart again.

Lets start with the overall picture of bayo and scabbard

The maker's mark and serial number

Serial number on the scabbard

Ch.A.W.

The ugly bit .

The other side, should have been the second pic .

Top of the grip

Bottom of grip.

Beautiful piece of stag.

Not plastic .

More ugly internals, the runners.

This is more or less all the pics I have of this piece. If you want any better pics or descriptions ask away.

I hope we see more examples of this piece, I'd love to know how many there are in captivity.

Jim, beautiful piece!
I especially like the wide-fuller blade. I don't recall ever seeing one in this configuration.
I must agree with your comment about the "Ch.A.W". The first time I saw this marking, I was immediately reminded of the buttstock marking on some of the "Mauser Gewehre für Deutsche Reichspost" rifles issued in 1933/34. This marking was "Ch.d.A." It has been suggested this means "Chef des Amtes" or "Chief of the Office/Organization". Personally, I find this meaning rather non-sensical, but have nothing else to suggest.
Hopefully one day, someone will uncover more information that will solve the mystery of both of these markings.

Hello Guys,

Here is an example but it doesn't not have the "CH.A.W." stamp on the other side.

Regards,
-serge-