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After reading this whole thread regarding these types of daggers my own opinion is that they are post War humped up for sure! I would never purchase one of these daggers with all the red flags hanging over them, the truth is there for all to see now!! Confused

Colin

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Jim, As regards your question: ”If anyone has a better explanation as to the origin of these bogus silver fittings I, and I'm sure others, would like to hear it.” I’m not saying it is better. But here is one of several ideas I’ve contemplated to explain what appears to be in the images.

First, without the correct multiple sets of dies and stamping equipment you can’t make nickel silver chains that will match originals.  And a cast nickel silver chain set will give a fake away every time (just like some more recent fakes.)

When you are in short supply of period chain assembly parts, if you make the choice to switch to silver castings. And then to throw people off use fake “Gahr” marks (it seems that a lot of people even at this late date are not familiar with the markings).  The fraud succeeds.   AND if you go to the wide connector type. You also don’t need to try and make a conventional type spring loaded connector with moving parts which is much more complicated to make. A “win” “win” solution for the fakers. FP

Below: From another GDC thread, some ordinary nickel silver links. Please note that the parts are all more or less the same color.

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The R. Grüner NSKK “Hühnlein” dagger I think could be one of the 'Poster Children' for the above scenario (a short supply of period parts). In the image below I think it can be clearly seen that there are nickel silver parts, nickel plated steel, and a silver/white unidentified metal (used for the small wire connector links) all put together to create a chain assembly. Also please note on the spring loaded connecter piece - a partially damaged/crushed small wire connector link. Which suggests to me they might have been really trying to stretch a small supply of assorted chain parts to the maximum.

Where some of the rubber is going to hit the road IMO is with: “I am giving Tom Wittmann an exclusive on the photos of this piece for his book”. If Tom Wittmann gives this dagger a “pass” in his book without mentioning the controversy. And especially some of the specific issues that have been brought up in the discussion. While any author might unintentionally on some occasions have a fake get put into one of his books - because it was not known at the time. If it was the subject matter of a serious controversial public discussion that he has knowledge of well in advance of publication. That is another matter. Something like that (at least in my opinion) could have a far reaching impact on his reputation, and the acceptance of his book. FP

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i have a very good period photo of a nskk leader wearing a chained dagger i bought from Doug Gow, he had some of the best photographs at one time lets see if i can find it.


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quote:
Originally posted by nats:
Hi Everyone,just an observation,the centre mount on the dagger Jim posted,looks like the well made mounts on the SA honour daggers,nice finished edges.totaly different from the mounts on the Huhnlein daggers.nats


I agree with Nats, there is a big difference between those centre mounts. So now we have "good fakes", and "bad fakes". I know which one I prefer!

Regards

Russ

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Russ, That is an excellent observation on yours and Nats part with a picture to back it up!!! These guys (the fakers) were trying to make something that looked like a period mount, but did not have the right materials, the right equipment, or the expertise to make it.

That is what is so unreal about this discussion. This widespread acceptance of mixed and substandard parts and workmanship. Fake markings, and the whole nine yards.

How much evidence do you need to see that they are fake? Confused Best Regards, FP

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Fred put your thoughts in your new book and publish it! you are not a dealer or collector so your opinion is valued.

I would say in my opinion on the basis of this thread it is beyond "reasonable doubt" that these are humped up pieces.

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I'll chime in and state my humble opinion as well.

In view of all the evidence presented by the opposition, the ball is now in the believers half.
How can such a poorly made centre band along with these anomalies in casting/cast silver proof marks and irregular inscribed signature on blade be "undoubtly original"??

If anything like a Huhnlein original honor-dagger is around, I would expect it to be made similar such as the example Jim M is presenting.

The technology and knowledge was there pre-45 to make such a blade with a raised gold signature!

In my humble opinion these engraved specimens are post-war humped-up SA Honor daggers.

In response to the why-theory, why destroy and ruin original blades, my answer is simple:
As collectors like variations of daggers, why would not the ones who already owned the SA-Honor dagger want to add another rare specimen (Huhnlein Honor...) for maybe a bit more cash than the "standard" SA-Honor???

The market is made by us collectors, and we want it all... Wink Big Grin

Thanks to all the posters on this very interesting thread, especially Frogprince, Frederick J Stephens and Jim M!


Trigger is now signing off this thread Wink

Cheers,


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quote:
Originally posted by Trigger:

The market is made by us collectors, and we want it all... Wink Big Grin

Cheers,


....because a true collector can't allow any of the "varients" slip by him. Wink



Oh...the guy who was selling this Huhnlein "presentation" said it was "real" too. Razz

-serge-

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WOW!,,,with that last pic posted,,the plot only deepens and thickens,,,where oh where will this eventually lead to????.... Eek Big Grin Wink

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Serge,

I think the topic is the ones with damascus steel blades.

Dave

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Trigger, No thanks are necessary, but I and I'm sure Frederick J Stephens and Jim M appreciate them. While this at times has been a challenging discussion. It has also been an interesting and educational one as well.

But the real thanks I think should go to Craig Gottlieb for bringing this topic back to life after a two year hiatus. Without his announcement and what followed this thread would not have happened.

And I’m sure that there will be many at the MAX who would like to meet up with Craig personally. And thank him. For this much closer look into the “Hühnlein" daggers than happened with the very first discussion.

Dave, I don’t know Serge’s mind, but I’m going to guess that he was drawing attention to a tendency that some collectors have worse than others.

While I do both depending on what it is, a very good friend of mine is what I would call a hard core “variant collector”. Somebody mentions the word “variant” - and his eyes sort of glaze over and his wallet comes out.

Usually it’s harmless, but sometimes it can lead to making bad choices. Like for example the Dutch Heilman NSKK dagger from the 1950's which recently surfaced, and a whole bunch of others. Regards to All, Fred

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I've read the whole thread very carefully and I must admit that some of the conclusions brought here, are very disturbing to say the least.
I have never owned an NSKK High Leader and neither will I ever after reading this thread.
I'm not saying that it is 100% postwar made and neither do I say that it is original but it has certainly received a pretty "cold shower".
Why spend $ 50,000 on one of these and then try to convince the whole planet that it is original or not ?
No thanks, I'll just stick with a common SA Honor for now. Wink

Frederick and Frogprince, nice forensic work. Cool

Looking forward to see ya at the Max.

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With you on that Pat.. my NSKK Honor has a lovely original fine black leather scabbard and varnished deep wooden handle. But unfortunately no Chains or signature Frown

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quote:
Originally posted by mongobongo:
With you on that Pat.. my NSKK Honor has a lovely original fine black leather scabbard and varnished deep wooden handle. But unfortunately no Chains or signature Frown


I would rather have yours without the chain and signature, much rarer and no controversies with respect to the signature either. Wink

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And me Wink

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I,ll just stick with my Standard SA daggers at least i know where i stand with them Razz

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Dave,

I think you miss the point that Serge is trying to make.

He shows the fake steel blade Huhnlein just to compare against the........err.......umm - all the other fake Huhnleins that are in this thread!

FJS

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I ahve removed a series of off-topics insults by Ryan Sellick and a couple of responses.

Back to the NSKK Dagger.

Ryan, you have email

Dave

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I can only imagine the e-mail sent. Roll Eyes
Anyway, back to the basics.

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I know of a collector who owns a '33 type with no chain, DELUXE scabbard and with signature. VERY hard to believe someone would have altered this piece.
Sad to see things destroyed by OPINION, IMO.
Hard to understand the quality of the markings and some other things as well--but then, as we well know--many daggers have flaws and we don't understand that either.. AND WE JUDGE IF THEY ARE ORIGINAL BY THESE FLAWS. Strange hobby.


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Then back to “basics” it is: Among some of the items that were removed was a comment, and question, to Frederick J. Stephens. More specifically the comment that the dagger Serge posted was a fake. And that fake copies of items that are at some point determined to be earlier fakes is not at all uncommon with TR items.

I also asked a question about the width of the gold characters in the “Hühnlein” signature in the third image he posted. To confirm my belief that signatures written with a pen can vary slightly in width as the tip of the pen is turned/rotated. But that to get the extra width seen in some of the Hühnlein dagger signatures the writer would have to go back and forth, up and down. To fill in the character which is not the normal way people sign things. And in the case of the daggers, is seen with some examples, to be the work of a machine engraver which does not seem to be disputed.

Also removed I think was an observation that the Offermann dagger (with the possible exception of the crossguards) bears no resemblance to any of the current “Hühnlein” daggers other than it is a political type dagger. And more specifically, neither any part of the chain assembly, nor the center mount match those currently in circulation. Although it does appear to have the more ornate type crossguards.

My point being if the markings (of current examples) are cast on the wide connector variety (no question about that). And they don’t exist on any known period object (other than the daggers). And are not in period documentation. And the wide connector in the photo is very noticeably physically different from all those in circulation now. Is all of that together: “one of the mysteries of life”. Or a reasonably clear indication that it’s just one more example of a fake made specifically to fool the TR collecting public? FP

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Controversy has never been good for a particular item in the short run, but good for the collector and the hobby in the long run.
Debate is good, particularly in a "target rich" area such as these Huhnlein daggers.
Yes, it is Sad to see things destroyed by opinion. However it's a double edged sword, it's also sad to see things "made-good" by opinion.

I'm looking forward to seeing this dagger in person at the MAX and hearing Craig's story, along with our Frederick Stevens discussion of the item. Also Ron's 2nd Bahnschutz and the "Battle of the Crossguards".

The only thing I've learned in this hobby is you never stop learning.

-serge-

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quote:
“Controversy has never been good for a particular item in the short run, but good for the collector and the hobby in the long run.” .....” Yes, it is Sad to see things destroyed by opinion. However it's a double edged sword, it's also sad to see things "made-good" by opinion.”


A case in point was here on the GDC on another forum about 6 or 7 (?) years ago. A widely accepted belief in the collecting community, the issue was “personalized” government acceptance/property marked Luftwaffe daggers. Which caused pain for current owners, but benefited future owners and the hobby as a whole, as the number of these defaced daggers seen for sale has dropped dramatically. Also (hopefully) preserving the historical integrity of those daggers the fakers would have ruined in the future.

quote:
“I'm looking forward to seeing this dagger in person at the MAX and hearing Craig's story, along with our Frederick Stephens discussion of the item.”....


It will be very interesting to see at first hand the dagger that started this topic. And how equitably the debate is handled.

quote:
And a clarification of an earlier posting: “I also asked a question about the width of the gold characters in the “Hühnlein” signature in the third image he posted.”


Specifically referring to the noticeably narrower in places writing in gold on the Damascus blade first posted by Jim M. (Which IMO in the appropriate time frame should also have the “falling “N” type of signature if the NSKK plaques and the book are considered reasonably reliable guides.) FP

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my apologies to Houston if I was insultive...thanks for the email Dave...cheers, Ryan

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The plot continues the great and the good trying to get Craig out of an expensive hole FJS get in there at the MAX and denounce all these daggers as ATtttttttttttWOOD Fakes GO FRED GO

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I guess in summary (having been absent due to travel from many pages of this thread) it's best for me to say that "the whole world" doesn't need convincing that these daggers are real. Most of the world still believes they are good, after 12 pages Wink Anyway, my original (in my view and most other peoples view, and in the Mooney's view) will be on display at MAX. Anyone who would like to physically inspect what 99% of the collecting community still views as an original for the first time, may feel free to stop by my table.

And by the way, Fred Prinz, your little snide comment about my intellect are funny, especially this one:

"I also know to a certainty that you are not really - shall we say: “technically oriented”, which sometimes can make detecting fakes difficult."

If you come to MAX, I certainly hope you'll introduce yourself to me. I'll gladly share some of my intellect with you. I know you aren't really experienced enough with anything other than photographic manipulation and amassing an impressive forum post count, but we won't hold that against you Smile


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Craig,

No offense, but you don’t know anything about my education or background in general manufacturing and Aerospace. Thanks for the offer, but I think you should save your “intellect” for the debate at the MAX. You might need it.

FP

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quote:
Originally posted by Craig Gottlieb:
Anyone who would like to physically inspect what 99% of the collecting community still views as an original for the first time, may feel free to stop by my table.


Might want to work on your fractions a bit as the community is much larger than you think, and you do not have 99%.

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I think Craig may mean 99% of the dealers and collectors who've sold/bought them, not 99% of the whole world or the collecting community. At least I think it would be more accurate. I don't remember seeing the poll for the whole world - has anyone else?

For an item with so many blatant in-accuracies, I'm amazed that some of these experts believe they're genuine...but perhaps they have to...

Regards

Russ

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Evidence and analysis has been presented here to back up claims that these are not genuine. Nothing has been provided by the claimers that these are original period items apart from stories, and the old 'been collecting for 'x' years routine', which is rather tiresome. What happened to buying the item, not the story? Seems it doesn't apply in this case.

Regards

Russ

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If no "stories" were believed there would be no history-only opinions. Of course there is no or little agreement on many aspects of history. So--you have to form yout own opinion. All those who know the truth are dead. But then--some would not believe their "story' anyway.


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Craig, hello
Now that you are back reading the postings have you used the dental microscope thing to capture any images yet of the questionable hallmark areas I have ask about in the last few pages? I have ask a few times but maybe you missed my posts? I think that this may help with better images anyway. Aslo I will comment on Fred Priz's photo skills and say I think it has helped here and in other threads I know when a few of us were debating the luft machette thing this past winter Fred was not on any side of the fence but placed the burden of proof on the owners of those sidearms. granted thats another area that most collectors dont really care about due to the lack of flash and glory. Of which your item has. If we are taking a poll count on the item in question here in this thread, I think that Craig, you need to post many more images due to the questions raised.So I'll be in the minority of collectors who think this item is suspect. I sure hope you can find the time post post further images of the dagger as it may clear up a few things either way. I think that everyone has learned alot here in these posts!!
Bret Van Sant

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Everyone,

After reading this thread I must say that i am very disturbed with the ridiculous remmarks that these pieces are post war made!!
For the record, the dagger which I have posted pictures of, resides in the "Bias Collection", as my father, David, is the true dagger collector with over 40 years of knowledge and expirence.
He too is very disturbed with the remmarks made, but does not wish to part take on any discussion forums.
Here are some of my thoughts about the matter at hand. No two signitures will ever be the same! They may have the same strokes and have the same characteristics, but will never be perfect! If my memory serves me correct, there are about thirteen of these pieces in existance, then why would anyone in their sane mind be willing to take the risk in messing up 13 original SA High Leader blades!!!
We also have another NSKK Huhnlein blade. This blade is heavily pitted and basically ruined. The pitting goes through the Huhnlein signiture, logo, and motto. The tang is stamped DAMASK with the number 79. Now, I don't about you, but with the amount of pitting that is on this blade, it would take an extremely long time to reproduce.
I have a very high powered microscope that can also take pictures, so I will take some deep shots of the signitures and post them. It may have to be after the MAX show, since I am running short of time. I will have both pieces at the MAX so if anyone would like to see them upclose. Regards, Grant Bias

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I’m headed out for a good portion of the day, and only have time to comment on one of Grant Bias’s statements. Counterfeiters of antique guns when applying new markings will age/rust/pit the guns to camouflage their work. If they are skilled it can make it very difficult, and in some cases almost impossible to detect. And if they are successful it can dramatically increase the value of the firearm.

Also, sometimes you can get too close to the object being photographed. The surrounding area has to be examined as well, as can be seen I think in a picture I will post when I return. FP

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First I'm an unexperienced collector on this type of dagger.Second it's way over my head in price range.Reading this thread i have a couple of questions.
1. How many of this type dagger were produced at a time 1-3-7-12 ? Does anyone know ?
2.Did the same German craft's man make all the daggers or were they shop assigned at the request for purchase ?
3. Was there a standard for fittings or did the recipient change them as he liked ? Please don't tell me there were strict standards as High Officials did at times what they wanted.Stepp D. was a perfect example.
I'm not saying the dagger and fitting signature are right but none of us were there there all dead to include the makers of the daggers.There are no records by the company .we look at signatures and say there different.Thats way I'm asking how many were made at one time? .It may all sound dumb to the experts in the field but I'm sure there may be others asking as we went from a dagger to fittings, hallmarks in England and a very deep thread which at times I didn't even know what was being discussed . Again I'll say it so no one else has to "Eddie your dumb" Big Grin


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I love GDC and I've really enjoyed this topic so far and thanks to everyone for a great discussion. But when it comes to someone stating things like "I know you aren't really experienced enough with anything" etc.etc. This statement reeks of arrogants and is a blatant insinuation without proof, an allegation that is left hanging in the air for us all to think about! As if to state, maybe you all really shouldn’t trust what this person has told you, but you can trust me because I know a deep dark secret about this person. Personally I think it stinks, it’s unprofessional and tacky without proof and I believe those of us that are members of this dagger site are not idiots and shouldn’t be played as such. How extremely convenient and unintelligible it is to attack another’s background and credentials to further one’s argument without proof! Doesn’t sound philosophical to me and it just makes me suspicious of anyone acting in this manner and spoils the whole thread. I’m very disappointed.

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Mikee, You bring up a very valid point. This is why many people whom once to posted on here do not anymore (like me). People trash each other and their items, take cheap shots etc etc. This is sad; as most of the knowlege has been ran off never to return. Why bother wasting time? Confused

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In some of the related threads two years ago “argumentum ad hominem” was a standard practice/tactic. If I remember it correctly, a relatively lengthy public apology was issued by one of the participants during the discussion at one point. So far by comparison this thread is much milder.

It’s very much a guessing game just what is being reported with the badly pitted “Hühnlein" dagger blade mentioned. Unfortunately I didn’t find a digitized version of artificially aged counterfeit fake gun markings that I could post. Although we do already have at least one example (with the cast in place “Gahr” marked silver fittings) where something went wrong somewhere in the signature application process.

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To compensate a little, here is an interesting study IMO of another TR “Collector’s Treasure”. And why you sometimes have to step back a little to get a better perspective of something. I know that this is not a political dagger, but here is an unpainted “Reichs Party Day” etched knife blade.

Party_Day_fake_med.jpg (52.52 KB, 245 downloads)
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