UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons The BCN Bayonet Forum PANZER ETCHED BLADES, REGIMENTS AND CITIES.

A group of Panzer etched blades.
Photo # 1
Zur Efinnerung an meine Dienftzeit beim Panzer Regt. 1 Erfurt. by ROBERT KLAAS

photo #2 Reverse side

Photo #3
Zur Erinnerung and meine Dienstzeit beim Panzer-Regiment 3. Reverse side stamped man with sledge.

Photo #4
Blade close up

Photo #5
Stamped trade mark.

Photo #6
Fur Erinnerung an mein Dieltzeit beim Panzer - Regiment 4 Schweinfurt.
Stamped with Puma trade Mark Solingen

Photo #8
Single Etch;
Eickhorn Panzer tank etch. Number 3222.
I know those who have this blade will want to check the etching with the one they have. The Wayne H. Techet book has some excellent large photos on pages 113 and 128 and 129. He shows and explains some minor differences in the ones shown on page 129 stating template changes.

photo #9
Eickhorn Stamped trade mark

Photo # 10.
Blade close up.

Photo #11
Tank and death skull close up.

Photo # 12
This bayonet was posted earlier on the BCN.
Double skull and cross bone etching with Panzer Regt. 7. Stamped both sides by TIGER

Photo #13
Full view of bayonet Panzer Regt 7.

Photo #14
Close up of Panzer Regt.7

Photo # 15
Light cannon etch. ZUR ERINNERUNG AN MEINE DIENSTZEIT.

Photo #16
Reverse side.
PANZER ABW.ABT 24
Pack logo.

I hope you enoyed the Panzer etches. Let me know if you want to see and more of the Panzer unit blades.

Thanks for looking,
Sincerely,
HUBERTUS

Well guys, Ralph has done it again. He has made us realize the futility of collecting these things. He already has them all!

Ralph, I especially like the Pack Panzer Abwehr Abteilung 24. Terrific piece....

KS 98 nuts and more especially those ks98 folks who love SS marked stuff. If original that is the 10,000.00 question! I posted these pics for Richard Kuchta so your comments are appreciated! Are they good or bad??

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

Hmm...wonderful pieces but I am not knowledgeable enough to tell their authentity. Somehow the knot on pic #13 does not look good to me.

Keith

Ralph

OK, just how long did it take you to assemble this collection.

Again, nice bayonets. The Panzer Regt. 7 is very interesting. I don't know what the BCN opinion was but for what its worth I like it. I like the Ges Gesch at bottom of the etch. It just shows that if you had money you could get anything you wanted.

The Richard Kuchta collection is also very interesting. The pommel engravings were not done at the factory since they were etched not engraved. That said it doesn't mean it wasn't period done. There will always be controversy over these. One of my guide lines in purchasing any item is, will I be able to sell it easily. Oh I may have a couple items that fall out of the norm but I like them, and that is what it's all about.

TKissinger

John,

Richard's bayonet has some real immediate red flags for me.

The blade is engraved and not etched. Eickhorn etched blades for a living, why not etch this bayonet instead of engrave it? The pommel is engraved and not etched. Same question. In fact, the engraved pommel is a cartoonish rendition of the standard Eickhorn pommel etch with an added SS signal flag that did not exist in real life. This is an Eickhorn proprietary design. I could go on and on, but those are the two things that spring immediately to mind from the photographs.

I would not buy this bayonet for my collection.

George

Hubertus, well THAT is a nice and valuable collection of panzer and panzer related etched bajonets. Thank yoz for showing them. Please post more of them, they are wonderful and in condition to appreciate.

I’m afraid that I have to agree with George as regards Richard’s bayonet, and would have to include the attached belt frog as well. At a show recently I came across a Spanish M1943 with a German frog attached (imitating a 98K) that was “SS” marked. But differently using stamps instead of engraving. The frog was just as phony as the bayonet - being a conglomeration of individual hand stamps that did not match wear patterns. FP

KS SS98 Bayonets

John,
Thank you very much for posting the bayonet pictures for me and the Forum.As I was looking at the SS combat bayonets in the person's collection, he stated that he also had some dress bayonets. I know SS combat bayonets; however, these bayonets exhibit some characteristics that I have not seen before. I think that there was a KS98 Bayonet on the Forum that also had the SS ID number engraved on the tang between the grips. At the time I commented that I felt that the SS Bayonet was not correct. Now I am not sure. The SS marked bayonet with the logo on he blade came from a very old and noted collection.
Please provide your opinions and expertise so that we can determine if the bayonets are original.

Richard Kuchta

"Wheeler states in his book" yes ORPO quit quoting Wheeler! :-)

SS MARKED FROG FOR KS SS BAYONET

Frogprince,
You are the expert on bayonet frogs. Can you provide more details as to what is not correct with the frog. I have always had problems with the runes in a circle on a bayonet frog.

Richard Kuchta

Hi Richard,

Yes, I did state that Eickhorn offered custom engraving on the pommel. It is priced out in the Kundendienst as I recall. This pommel engraving was normally initials, unit designations, and such. The same type of nicely engraved initials offered on the langets of swords, etc. I just can't see why Eickhorn, who already had this particular KS98 pommel in stock, would make such a poor rendition of their own pommel. The quality of the engraving is not very good, IMHO.

I just cannot justify in my mind why Eickhorn would engrave this bayonet when they already had blade and pommel etching that looked much better than this. If it was privately done, it would not only violate Eickhorn's patent rights but would be more costly to pay someone who did such a poor job. All the etching seems over the top and concocted to me. Just an educated guess though.

George Wheeler

George,

I have to agree with you as to why would they engrave the byonet if they could etch it. Also the quality of the engraving is not that good. Since I have not viewed any of Eickhorns pommel engravings, my opinion is just that.
George, thanks for your input.

Richard Kuchta

Richard, The “circles” are not the main issue - because a counterfeiter can always have a new stamp made with whatever they want on it. While there are some other issues with the marking, the most obvious problem with the stamp on the frog posted is that it’s not aligned and was made using multiple stamps to obtain the desired result. The first image posted shows what I’m talking about using the yellow lines as a point of reference.

The bayonet is a fake and has an almost identical clone (very likely done by the same guy) that was discussed a while back. Among other similarities it was also numbered on the spine using a small chisel (or sharpened screwdriver blade) and was very obviously hand done (I’m guessing) because the counterfeiter lacked a set of fake very small “SS” stamps, and a proper period set of number dies. Unlike the Spanish M1943 I mentioned (and some Portuguese contact pieces I’ve seen) where the counterfeiters invested in some metal stamps to try and pass off bogus items. With the frog(s) most probably being purchased from a “specialist counterfeiter” who is/was faking just the frogs. (At the end of my comments there is a link to the discussion of the other dress bayonet.)

And ....... Surprise!, Surprise!, Surprise!!! there was a belt frog attached on that other bayonet as well. And another hand done set of misaligned fake SS markings on the frog (Please note that the center marking on both, besides being misaligned, are at different depths as compared to the circles at the ends).

There are some other side issues as well. Like black paint filling in the some of the engraved markings (covering up the bottoms so they can’t be examined) etc. But I’m sure that (most unfortunately) later versions will be improved and won’t go into more specifics. But the bottom line is that I personally would not touch either of these bayonets or frogs. FP


Fake SS Dress bayonet

PS: Is it just me - or is the level of “workmanship” as seen on the other dress bayonet the same as on this latest example?? Same guy??? FP

Frogprince,

Thank you for your excellent analysis of the bayonets. I think you nailed it. Your comparisson of the known bad bayonet to these two is great work. The similiarities between the bayonets speak for themselves. I hope this helps other bayonet collectors from getting into trouble. I don't think the owner of these two bayonets will be very happy with the data that the forum has provided.
Fred, again thanks for your expertise.

Richard Kuchta

SS NCO PORTAPEE

Is this portapee correct or is it a reproduction?

Need some help with this one.

Richard Kuchta

Richard,

The photos of the NCO Troddel are not too clear but it looks OK to me. Look for signs of age and pry open the vertical cords on the Quaste with your fingers and look at the thread underneath. The wooden form should be wrapped with waste thread and should not glow under UV or look like it was made last week.

They are reproducing these knots currently but there are some older fakes as well with 20 years or so age on them.

George

George,

Thanks for providing a method to check the age of the portapee.

Richard Kuchta

The really very nice bayonets which Hunertus posted that started this thread are what collectors are looking for and hoping to find. And if lucky sometimes are able to acquire for their own collections. They are some of the ‘crown jewels’ in the collections of those that specialize in dress bayonets. Those are some of the “plusses” of higher end collecting.

On the negative side it’s been said that collecting can be a “minefield”. And with the high dollars attached to “SS” and “HJ” and some other types of dress bayonets for example (not to mention the complete postwar reproductions of bayonets) there are a lot of traps especially for novice collectors to fall into.

Richard mentioned that the “SS” bayonet posted here came from a “very old and noted collection”. The point here being that even old time collectors can be fooled. And it’s not just bayonets. It’s daggers and swords as well as a number of other things. I have heard joking references made that there are more faked items in circulation in some of these categories than originals. And am seriously wondering if some of that might not be true - given some of the things I have seen in the past few years - especially with some of the items that are now emerging that have been squirreled away for 10-20-30 or more years.

As we all know many of the individuals who are selling bogus items hide behind poor photography to conceal their fakes from close scrutiny. I personally am still developing my own skills - and can’t in good faith fault anybody who unintentionally takes bad images. But if anybody really wants to have their items given a reasonably thorough visual evaluation, then high quality closeup pictures are a must. To give everyone who is looking the best possible chance for picking out the details - which quite frequently give away the true nature of the fakes. There are no guarantees. Because sometimes other senses are involved, which is why physical observations are best*. But it sure beats taking a chance with something that you can’t even see clearly. (* With George’s observations on the knot being a good example.)

And on the plus side - it’s always very reassuring to find out that an item in question is OK. Regards to All, FP

Oppps! My apologies to Hubertus for the typo with the “n” instead of a “b”. FP

GREAT SUMMATION FROGPRINCE. YOU HAVE A WAY WITH WORDS.

RICHARD KUCHTA

Thank you WOTAN for the request for more Panzer etched blades. I will try and post a couple that I took tonight and more tomorrow if possible. I still have not got the hang of all the garbaley gook numbers and terms on this digital camera so I end up taking dozens of photos and try and pick out the best of the lot. I have moved all around the lights from 200 watt to fluorescents but daylight seems to get the best detail shots. I want to thank everyone else that is posting on this group with their photos and their thoughts. I believe that is what makes the BCN Forum so popular.

Panzer blade 14

Panzer blade 25

Panzer blade 25 close up view.

Panzer blade 25 makers mark. JOH. HILLER BAD CANNSTATT

Panzer 37

Panzer 37 Close up

Panzer 37 Stamped makers mark.

Ralph,
Re: Your Panzer Abw. 25 Kornwestheim blade. Over the years, I have seen three others attributed to this unit. All three were identical and had no maker's/distributor's mark - only "Solingen". All were etched on both sides of the blade. I've never seen one like yours. Neat piece!
Here are pictures of mine. They also appear in Angolia's first dagger book which he attributed to someone else.

Reverse

PANZER 37. 1A

PANZER 37 1B Close up

PANZER 37 Reverse Side 2C

PANZER 37 Rever Side Close Up 2D

PANZER 42

PANZER 42 Close Up

TANKS 1A

TANKS 2B Close Up

TANKS Reverse Side 3C

TANKS Reverse Side Close Up 4D

TANKS AA 13 --1A

TANKS AA 13 -- 2B --Makers Mark
ALCOSO. Close Up

TANKS AA13 Reverse Side 3C

TANKS AA 13 Reverse Side Close Up 4D

I hope this was not to much over kill with the Panzer etched bayonets but it will give you and idea of what is out there in just one field. Collecting bayonets of all types is available from the reasonable to the very expensive. All the new members can start getting their feet wet as you will find collecting bayonets and other war trophies also give you a good Historical lesson along the way.
Thank for looking.
Sincerely,
HUBERTUS

Never had much interest in bayo's,I have one etched one (one side).But your collection could sure spark an interest.Nice low cost for now way for new or young collectors to get started.Great show thanks

Ralph
Some of the most desireable etched dress bayonets I've seen. Especially the Tiger Panzer. I just love to look at "great" stuff.

This is a new addition to this Panzer forum that I posted last December. I am hoping that if members keep posting to these older forums it will keep them alive for future members that are looking for information about some of their daggers and bayonets. I keep reading in the Community Center Posts that lot of the older posts are being discontinued and a lot of reference is being lost. I can understand that some of the old posts need to be cleaned off the slate and it is evident that the main source of the whole network will only hold so much information and then it will be gone anyway. Collectors like to have reference to try and satisfy their self that they have not bought a mistake. It is hopeful that with the photographs and the comments they receive that this makes the whole project worth while.
Anyway…this is a RICHARD HERDER SOLIGEN single sided long etched bayonet.
It is etched “Zur Erinnerung an mine Dienftzeit beim Panzer –Regiment No 1 Erfurt”

Photograph #1

Photograph #2

Photograph #3
Thanks again for looking.
Sincerely,
HUBERTUS

Ralph

You have a most impressive collection. Thanks for the pictures. Maybe you should write a reference book.

Dear Ralf,

Thank you for showing us your excellent collection. Those are really beautiful & artistic design you got there

Cheers,
Ibrahim,
Singapore.

Sorry, but my Panzer SS Bayonet is in the bank. It is the Pack Tank in an Oval and is named on the reverse in gold letters to Sepp's Adjutant: Hermann Weiser. Pictures are in my "German Clamshells and Other Bayonets" to those who have my book. I have had this bayonet for over 35 years and it is the only one I have ever seen named.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria
PS: I just love those oval Packs.

Denny,

Isn't that reverse (and obverse) pattern just beautiful. Pictured in my book page 252. Certainly a highlight to any collection. Very nice indeed.

I Love This Stuff
Von Ryan

These Panzer Etched Bayonets are awesome! I knew I shouldn't have stopped and read this thread, as now I want to switch from collecting daggers and swords to etched bayos. However I don't see any of this type for sale anywhere and something tells me from what I see that they are way out of my price range anyway.Beautiful bayonets men! JohnJ

JohnJ, there is no problem to switch. Just go to Craig´s site, there is a nice EICKHORN tank bayonet for 5295$ and you have your first piece for your next collection.
Regards,

Johnj,

Now that's an excellent decision. Panzer etches are always in demand and thus the presumably hight cost. Luftwaffe etches are also highly in demand, but no matter how much they cost today, if you go for Rarity of etch and Condition of blade you will ALWAYS have something worth selling when you wish to.

Yes, Craig has a beautiful Eickhorn Panzer available for $ 5,295.00. Now don't get me wrong, it is an "in demand" etch, however I've seen quite a few of them (usually not for sale).
The highest priced example on my web-site is a MINTY, BLUED, OVAL E. Pack & Sohne with the anti-tank or artillery crew featured in the oval. This example is featured in my book on page 87 and I have never seen another example of this etch in a minty condition or not. The price I have on it is $ 4,900.00 and would be considered a much rarer example than the Eickhorn Panzer on Craigs list. But it's all in what you want! Other more common etches are more easily acquired and won't upset your pocketbook and that's usually a great place to start to see if you really have the etched bayonet "bugg" or not. If you would like one of my books I'll be happy to send you one, just go to my web-site (below).

I Love This Stuff
Von Ryan

There is no argument that the presumably prewar reservist’s dress bayonets posted are very attractive examples of what Solingen industry could create. What is also interesting I think is to fast forward in time to when the units were mobilized and went to war.

Some of the unit histories make interesting reading. And incorporate changes in weaponry like up gunned AT weapons and tanks as German forces met increasingly heavy opposition, with units accumulating impressive battle records. And while the bayonets themselves never went to war. The idea of having something that belonged to a member of a unit that had a well respected combat record would I think only add to the interest associated with many examples. FP