UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SA & NSKK Dagger Forum NSKK High Leader Debate Is Over

Should this unfortunately continue Dave, we would hope that a Draconian solution not be adopted that would close the thread. Rather those offending persons should be punished. This is much too interesting and informative to be closed.

First, I would like to thank Craig for posting the images on his web site which gets right to the heart of the matter. (And I think helps to cut out a lot of the unnecessary back and forth, which I suspect at times has sometimes been a little less than productive.)

Here is some more ‘food for thought’ - with hopefully some input from others who have some technical expertise in this area. This is the best that I could do at the moment, with a reasonably close up comparison of three of the signatures, including this latest example in the center.

I may have to re-calibrate my thinking on how the Hühnlein signatures were made. Before this last example I thought that they were acid etched. As exemplified by this close up of the squirrel, showing the visible “grain” in the Damascus steel with the etching acid eating away at the unprotected area.

Here is a close up of the signature for this latest dagger. I can’t be completely sure from the image because there may be computer generated artifacts. But it almost looks like it was (rotary?) engraved to give it more depth before being treated with acid? With my thinking being that acid left in it long enough too make it that deep. Would also have attacked the softer steels more aggressively making the grain structure at the (letter) bottoms more pronounced, instead of having what seems to be some letters with relatively smooth bottoms. (Perhaps some even closer images will help. But this is what I seem to be seeing at the moment.)

The two together. FP

I don't want to sidetrack this discussion but I think this is related so here goes.
Fred:
Didn't we hit a similiar problem when we were discussing how the inscription was completed on the recently surfaced damascus Goring Industrial sword?
Jim

Jim, Yes, it is somewhat similar. But only to the extent that I think that there was agreement during the discussion that the letters on the sword had been engraved. Versus being forged by hand which I think had been suggested by the seller or someone representing the sword (?) when it first surfaced (I’m not entirely certain with that particular recollection). If memory serves me correctly Damast (James) in the GDC discussion even suggested a particular type of machine that could do that type work.

But with the dagger I think that there are some differences. The borders of the letters in the Hühnlein signature are, in at least my view, noticeably more irregular than those of the sword. Which to me suggests it could have been done by hand. Or possibly using a light duty template? Not a certainty at this point. But is an area I would be looking into more closely based on what I seem to be seeing at the moment. Fred

I took another look at the signature of the Hühnlein dagger belonging to Grant Bias, and another I had on file. Both exhibit what I am at the present interpreting as machine engraving. Either of the hand held, or light duty template variety.

While some new ultra close images could possibly change my opinion, for the present my confidence level is growing. I’m also reasonably certain that everyone viewing will ultimately make their own judgments as to what they are seeing in these most recent images. FP

Could this be similar to an autopen or pantograph signing machine? They have been around since about 1800. Thomas Jefferson used one.

I am thinking something similar, but with a miniature grinding tool instead of a pen. The "engraver" just follows a signature on a piece of paper.

?

Dave

Dave, I was thinking of something else, but that’s not a bad idea, and it certainly could have used something like a paper template to follow. I’m also thinking of something more like a Dremel tool, with some kind of a base plate contraption attached. (Similar in concept to a (woodworking) fixed router base with the router bit sticking through the base plate.) Using as you suggested, a ‘ball’ type cutter.

The reason is the 3D nature of the dagger blades, with no seeming evidence of a change in the depth of the cut. Whereas a Dremel tool with a fixed base would follow the contour of the blade. I’m also not locked into the idea of a Dremel tool per se, because there are some 3D pantographs using rotary engravers out there. But they were not as common as now. Here’s another image where I tried to minimize the computer generated artifacts. (It’s not great, but was the best I could do.) Fred

I do not think master swordsmiths would resort to such a rudimental process. If they could put a gold motto and trademark on a Damascus blade I am sure a signature would be no problem. Also there is noway someone is going to hold a hand held rotary tool ridgid enough to cut steel with anykind of precision,maybe a pantograph system could be used but why? and are there any other TR blades with such a process?

My personal view is that they are acid etched. Not only were the manufacturers proficient at this sort of thing, but close up inspection leads me to conclude this. I will try to see if I can take an ultra close-up of the signature. I have seen other "etched" presentations and characters on damascus, and up close, under high resolution, it's easy to see the effects of etching.

Craig, If the blades were later “freshened up” with an acid bath, then they will be etched inside the letters, but most likely not as deeply as they would have been under normal circumstances. My point being that the interiors of the letters should be at least comparable to the squirrel etching if not deeper. So if possible, please also take some more images of the squirrel as a control for the inside of the letters.

Zorro,  There is no factory use of rotary engravers for TR Solingen blade makers (for presentation blades) that I know of, instead using more conventional  methods. There is evidence, however, of engravers being used after an item was sent to the end user. 

One example that comes to mind are the 98K combat bayonets that were sent to the German Kriegsmarine. Engravings were used to add the Naval control/property markings.  As seen with these markings, they are fairly small, being roughly 1/8 inch in height.  Reasonably decent workmanship IMO (the 1939 date is a factory stamping.) FP

Hermann Historica have another of these in their catalogue. Looking at the signature under their web magnifying glass, it does appear to be acid etched. Seem to be few appearing !!! JMO

Rereading: “I do not think master swordsmiths would resort to such a rudimental process. If they could put a gold motto and trademark on a Damascus blade I am sure a signature would be no problem.”

A very interesting point! How much additional cost and effort would be needed to put Hühnlein’s signature in gold on the blade, with the same reasonably precise result as seen with the motto? Instead of the fairly inconsistent ways the signature is actually executed. Or would it actually be less expensive? FP

Spock, I’m not necessarily of the opinion that etching was not used with some of the Hühnlein daggers. This particular example with the (demonstrably) fake cast silver Gahr marked fittings has what looks to me like it might be a botched etching process that “went south”. So it could have been failures that prompted a switchover to rotary engraving. Not a certainty at this point, as a much closer look would be needed with this example to try and make a better determination. Is there any chance that you could post the image(s) that you mentioned? FP

here are some, the best i could manage, hope they are informative

sig

even the previous sig shows slight variations.

Here is the entire item. Good luck with the investigation, this is what forums are for....discussion....

Managed to get a good pic of grip fittings hope they help

upper

This topic needs to be discussed at the Round Table on Daggers at the MAX Seminar Program on Friday nite.
Also, as each damascus blade exhibits different hardness and any etching would vary with the metal, there will be minor changes in the application.
This model honor dagger has been found over the years from different veterans and I know of at least 3 different ones than those mentioned here.
JMO,
Ron Weinand

Ron, That this topic was going to discussed at the MAX I took as a given. And there are a number of other daggers out there, and I don’t if you were including those attributed to Jason, or some others (or not). I’m also in agreement that etching is affected by the composition of the steel, which is something the Germans were counting on. Without those different layers there would be no Damascus pattern.

As for the dagger that Spock contributed, I’ve seen a lot of Hühnlein daggers with tired blades. Some more than others. But this example has set a new boundary, at least for me. I don’t ever remember seeing one quite as bad as this.

My thanks to Spock, because the more daggers that we see now. The better we are informed, and prepared for any discussion or discussions. The motto:

The best close up that I could accomplish of the signature.

The signature a little further away, along with a filter adjustment and the squirrel for comparison. I would like to get a lot closer to the signature to be absolutely sure. But considering what the blade has gone through it does not IMO look quite right. With no rust in the signature, and not seeing any grain structure visible either. It looks to me to be more of a later add on to the blade. (But of course, everyone can be their judge as to what is. Or is not, going on with the blade.) FP

I am ALL FOR a discussion of this dagger type at the MAX show, and will be glad to provide anything by way of contribution to the topic. Regarding the "ugliest NSKK" competition: myself and two other dealers purchased one from a guy who rode into the Kassel show on a bicycle, about 3 years ago. It was void of any scabbard, and the blade was slightly less "holey" than swiss-cheeze. It was truly awful, and I'm glad I don't have a picture of it! Anyway, my NSKK will be on display at the show, and the Mooneys are scheduled to come for a visit. Maybe they would be willing to tell their story for the seminar. I'll ask.

Here are some additional images of the dagger Spock posted, but from a different time frame and web site. A brief look at the images will verify that it’s the same dagger using the location of the pitting spots, and a piece of the blade that is missing as references.

With the most discernible differences here being that of the condition of the logo. With more rust in the vicinity of the logo still being present as compared to the earlier image from Spock (that is labeled "current"). And with both, evidence of rust still being present at the juncture of the crossguard and blade.

With the better overall color values of these images what really caught my eye was the condition of the interior of the Hühnlein signature. I wonder what kind of a story the signature could tell?? To have survived as well as it seems to have done, especially with a blade which has been so abused. It’s really pretty amazing when you think about it, with no discernible rust, and a nice relatively even grayish coloring inside the lettering.

Unfortunately, however, the image is not of a high enough resolution to really see if they is any Damascus “grain” inside the lettering still present or not. To resolve that issue some better images of the dagger would be needed to cross compare the signature with the logo.

With the original Hühnlein dagger thread being able to invert the images was very helpful. Helping to both detect and to confirm that the silver “Gahr” Hühnlein fittings were fakes. So I thought that it might be useful here as well, to help readers in making their own evaluations. First, the signature.

And the Eickhorn logo(s) for comparison. FP

Here is the latest documentation concerning the example that I purchased through a friend of mine in Denmark (Patrice knows this gentleman). So now we have 3 with good documentation. One in Pittsburgh, one in Denmark, and one in Washington State.

I have a quick question: Is there more to the story and photo (like some reasonably decent close up pictures of the dagger). Or is that all there is?

And a typo correction for the dagger images just posted. Make that: “..... the image is not of a high enough resolution to really see if there is any Damascus “grain .....” inside the lettering” FP

Let me try that again: “..... the image is not of a high enough resolution to really see if there is any Damascus grain inside the lettering”..... FP

I have closer photos of the dagger, but not good enough for any serious study.

I would be happy with any photos that you would care to share. Sometimes even less than optimal images show where items fit into the overall scheme of things. FP

Very interesting topic.
Clearly a lot of effort is put into place to make the collecting world accept these daggers with controversial Hühnlein signatures via written testimonials of vet's families, by dealers passing the daggers around, ...etc.

My personal opinion: Fred's analysis and theories are very convincing and seem to hold out!

I also wonder: why such a highend artifact, that (unlike common daggers) started to be collected right after the ending of WW2, never was proved to be original during the past 65 years? The original owners, their families, their friends and their colleagues were still alive and could easily confirm if Hühnlein did award signed daggers or not!

But now, when everybody that could now the truth about these daggers passed away, now, some people want to absolutely proof that they were original after all...

Best greetings,

Herman

Hermann, some of your comments amaze me. When one realizes that the FIRST attempt at identification of any of the daggers appears on the scene in 1958 and there were NO authorities who had any idea of what daggers were associated with which units or people, how would you expect any research or attempts at dagger authentification would have been done??
I was already collecting at that time and believe me, no one really cared and the only reproductions were the parts pieces that the GIs brought back by themselves.
I think that with Fred at the MAX Show Seminars and the roundtable discussion, there will be enough people who have been in the hobby for over 50 years that we will be able to debunk most of this arguement.

Ron, I have some other commitments today so this will be brief. As we speak there is an American dealer who has for sale a presentation SA dagger to SA Standartenführer Ziäbler, another presentation SA dagger to an Otto Voss. And still another presentation (differently done) to Hühnlein himself, by none other than Adoph Hitler. The first two are done in the manner of the Dutch Heilmann "Hühnlein" dagger. Presumably by the same individual or individuals, and I think that there may be some others(?). As for the timing issue (1958), those were from well over 50 years ago. So I think that it's a very fair assumption that somebody had to have been reading some books back then to have come up with those names. And they were originally most likely made to target those who were looking for the rare and/or unusual to add to their collections. Which does not at all preclude a non-collector from buying a postwar altered item, which sometimes happened, especially before many things became so overvalued.

When Craig started this topic a little over two years ago, “Hühnlein” daggers were not on everyone’s “radar screen”, and the daggers were introduced as a rarity. At the subsequent MAX from what I understand, there was not an observable Hühnlein dagger to be found at the show.

My point being that at a round table with someone presenting letters, and testimonials or those relating their personal experiences of 10, 20, 30 etc. years ago is all well and good. But the ultimate test are the objects themselves. (Which is what happened to the “Kaltenbrunner” SS sword (another forum). An absolute fake it had to be physically seen before a reasonably accurate determination could be made).

And that is why this discussion is so important. Because if no daggers show up to be photographed and examined in detail. Then the only physical evidence for any discussion (besides the one Craig has at the moment) will be what has been presented here. Regards, FP

I have removed some insulting/trolling posts that had nothing at all to do with the topic at hand.

Dave

Talk about the Energizer Bunny ! This debate is NOT over

NOTHING has been PROVEN about the silver stamps. NOTHING has been proven about the Kaltenbrunner sword. OPINION is all any of you doubters have-and everyone has one of those.