UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SA & NSKK Dagger Forum Vertical drag marks from scabbard? Help a newbie!

A local shop has an SA dagger. I've seen a few of these in the past but was was always afraid to buy since I'm pretty clueless about them. After reading all I can on the net, this one appears original and in nice shape. The blade doesn't look like anyone has polished on it, but it does have small drag marks from where it fits the scabbard tightly. Is it common for these to fit so tight or should I be weary? The guy wants $300.00 firm so I'm debating taking a chance on it.

Welcome to the forum timboo.

"Runner marks" are extremely common, you have nothing to worry about there.

Is there any chance you can get a few photos to post on the forum? That way, we can make sure it's an original.

Thanks for the input. I'll try and get some pictures if I can. I'm a bit afraid this one is going to Ebay, so I may have to act fast on it.

Timboo... better to be safe than sorry.

The last thing you want is to act fast on it, to then find out that you've spent $300.00 on a fake.

Very sound advice. I don't want to lose it, but I don't want to toss $300.00 in the trash either.

I stopped by this evening but didn't have a camera with me. The maker is "JA Hinckel", but I may not have spelled that right. The scabbard is anodized brown, not painted. Like so many sellers, he said some guy is "supposed" to come back and trade him out of it this weekend. That may or may not be a sales pitch.

Hello timboo,welcome to the forum,
J A Henckels is a maker of SA daggers,If its in good condition $300 sound like a fair price,nats

http://members.lycos.nl/stantheman/

I still say you should be cautious. Ask the guy if you can take a couple of photos and if he'll hold it for you. Maybe even offer him a small deposit if you feel that you really have to. Better to loose the deposit than the whole amount.

Even if it is real, $300.00 is at the lower end of the market, so unless it's the bargain of the year, there'll be more opportunities later to pick another one up.

What is the condition of the scabbard? Has most of the finish come off? Is the scabbard ball squashed? Is there screws missing? Any dings? What about the grip? Is there any cracks or chips? Is the SA rune and eagle all in tact? You've mentioned that the blade has runner marks and doesn't appear to be polished but is there any signs of sharpening? What is the condition of the tip of the blade? What is the fit of the blade to the lower crossguard like? Is there a gap or does it fit nice and snug?

Is $300.00 the most you can afford? Another $200.00 will find you nice enough SA dagger in our for sale section from one of our members, you just need to be quick but at least you know what you're getting without the risks.

The scabbard finish is all there. The scabbard is free of any dings or dents. The ball on the end is slightly bent however. Both screws are in the scabbard and appear unfooled with. The blad hasn't been sharpened. The dagger grip is free of any cracks. There are a few small handling marks in the wood. the wood around the eagle's head has a very, very small flake or chip missing. The SA and eagle are in tact, but it looks like the SA has some grime on it that needs cleaned. The hilt has a couple letters on it that I don't remember. The hilt and pommel appear solid metal, not plated and show just a hint of green around a couple places that look like it would wipe off with a rag. The blade fits the crossguard perfect. The wood only shows a paper thin gap from shrinkage away from the crosguard on on corner. The "story" is that a local woman's husband brought it back from Germany. If it is a fake, it's an older fake. It's shows "age" but it still in nice condition. The scabbard has leather hanger that was definately added at a later date. It looks like a watch fob.

sdp, I appreciate you taking the time to help me on this.

Timboo... you're welcome.

It sounds like you would already know but there should be 4 screws for the scabbard, as I note you say, "Both screws are in the scabbard and appear unfooled with",

Is the eagle's wings in the centre of the widest part of the grip?

I wouldn't worry about the hanger considering the price.

The way you've described it does sound like it's an early model SA. Still, I feel VERY nervous trying to give an opinion and advice without any pictures at all.

Just to be sure, is there anyway to get a photo or to get the guy to hold it for you? If not, ultimately it will be up to you to make the decision. However, it does sound like you've done your homework.

Let us know how you get on.

Sorry, I wrote "both screws" thinking about the tip where the ball is damaged. It has the two screws in the top as well. I'll try to get photos tomorrow.

I've collected firearms for years, so I know how difficult appraising firearms sight unseen and again I appreciate all the help.

The eagle does appear to be in the right location. If I can get those pics, I'll post them tomorrow night.

J A Henckels for $300.00 sounds like a real steal.
So far I didn't hear about fake J A Henckels SA, but ... who knows?

I took a gamble and picked the dagger up this evening. I didn't have to pay $300.00 for. I ended up trading a pistol I'd bought for $130.00 even up for it, so hopefully even if you guys tell me it's a fake or a junker, I didn't get hurt too bad. You'll notice the streaks from the scabbard.
Sorry for the links. It wouldn't let me attach the picture direct for some reason.
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m11/rwphilli/sadagger001.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m11/rwphilli/sadagger004.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m11/rwphilli/sadagger002.jpg

More close up shots.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m11/rwphilli/sadagger007.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m11/rwphilli/sadagger002.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m11/rwphilli/sadagger005.jpg

You got a hell of a deal in my opinion. You may want to clean off the green verdigris as it will eventually pit the crossguards.

more photos

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m11/rwphilli/sadagger009.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m11/rwphilli/sadagger006.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m11/rwphilli/sadagger008.jpg

This hanger was attached but I'm sure it's from something else. Anyone know??
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m11/rwphilli/sadagger010.jpg

Can you guys give me any input as far as the age age and value?

Also what the best method to clean off the dagger and scabbard? I need to remove the green gunk off the blade and handle and some very light rust off the scabbard. I assume once it's clean I should tread everything including the wood with Ren wax?

Yep... well done Timboo!!!

You're homework has paid off and extremely well I might add.

You've definitely come out well in front with this deal.

Nice one!

I can't see any reason why you couldn't get, "around", $650'ish for it, possibly a little more as the blade appears to be in top condition.

Maybe a little light use of some Simichrome could be in order. You should get the green stuff off for sure but somehow try and avoid removing too much patina from the crossguards. You can never go wrong using Renwax in my opinion. However, everyone has their own ideas on what should be cleaned and what shouldn't, just don't over do anything.

It's an early '30's made dagger. Sorry, I have no idea about that, "hanger".

Once it's cleaned up a bit I'll find someplace to order a display case for it. I've always wanted one of these, so it would never be sold.

I'll look around for some semichrome for the metal and renaissance wax. I assume a very "light" treatment with simichrome shouldn't hurt the scabbard? I wouldn't try to make it look new, but I want the light rust off the scabbard and of course the green off the metal parts.

And thanks again for your help with this!

My opinion... wipe the green verdigris off with a rag. Don't polish or buff anything. Ditch the semichrome it has ruined many a dagger in the hands of the wrong person. Wash the blade in a solution of HOT water and sudsy ammonia being careful not to get any between the blade and crossguard. Use a sponge or terrycloth washcloth. Hold it with the tip pointing down when you are doing this. Dry with a terrycloth towel. This will remove the 70 years of whatever has accumulated on the blade and it will shine. Never, EVER touch the blade with your fingers. My preference is to never sheath the blade again and display it out of the scabbard. I wouldn't do anything with the scabbard except perhaps wipe it down with a clean soft cotton cloth like a T-shirt. Ren wax is optional... I don't use it. I don't like the idea of trapping dust or other particles next to the blade.

Shouldn't I be concerned about the light rust spots on the scabbard? I used a rag and light pentrating oil to remove the green gunk.

There is an oft-used saying in this hobby... "the money is in the blade". In my opinion those light rust spots on the scabbard are not a big deal. If they bother you wipe the scabbard with some penetrating oil like three-in-one oil. Aggressive cleaning may remove the anodization and whatever lacquer is left. Believe me... it will take one hell of a long time for those rust spots to grow as long as you keep it out of the rain.