UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Miscellaneous Dagger Forum Black Klass daggers, can this coincident be too much?

Who ever said that this hobby was easy ?

Houston: Maybe you are right but we have the same situation with the SS Officer-Candidate degen and the Naval Assault dagger. In the case of the latter we know that this dagger was never assigned specifically to Naval assault troops but everyone still calls it the Naval Assault dagger. Why? Because of ease of communication. And in the case of the 1st model RW dagger there will always be lingering questions, and evidence may surface which may support or dispute its purported function from time to time. But one thing is certain, it will allways be considered a separate and unique item. One reason is that there are too many collectors out there who don't want to hear that their 1st model RW dagger in their collection is just an overpriced run-in-the-mill army dagger. And dealers who have some of these in their inventories would not be thrilled with the idea either. This is why, at this point in time, it would take some pretty convincing and well documented evidence that would change all that.

I also like to say that I do care about authenticity. Proven authenticity is when an artifact can be traced back to the period in question by means of provenance. I don't know of many collectors in the 'average' category who have this type of formal proof for all their collectables. It would be nice to have documented evidence for all the daggers, medals, etc. But since I don't have it I made the decision to 'endure' without.

Manfred -we do now have pictorial proof that the "so called-old called" candidate degen is in fact an SS Officer's degen.Those photos are right on this forum. Those who ignore this or don't know this and continue with the old term are IMO -to say the least-"out to lunch" in hobby knowledge. .-However I would speculate with the positive opinion that most really know better but just use the term for easy identification as to what they are talking about. The Naval Assault terminology is the same. In time these terms may go away-I hope so -because they are not historically correct---and there are others too--I really hate it when someone says "Postal Dagger" instead of "Postschutz". One big dealer went so far as to say he did not know what a postman would do with such a dagger. Such BS IMO should not go without challenge and we should try to be correct in our terminology. Again--I think -and hope some of this BS will go away in time--at least -most don't still think there were only 200 Himmler daggers and the little bench marks are the serial numbers. JMO

I feel the same as Lakeside Trader.The daggers were made as we call them "1st R.R.",the 2ndR.R. came out and ended the need.If this dagger didn't exist why are 2ndR.R. made with the same grip materials and there black also?? I wish they would find evidence it would increase my 1st.I bought it 15yrs.ago when they were really 1st R.R.to almost everyone.

We just have to hope that evidence will be found-one way or the other. The black gripped army at one time was thought to be a Pioneer dagger and the Postschutz -a Signal Corps Officer dagger.

I would think that the answer will lie in period photographs. It would not be the first time !

With luck, a sharp photo will turn up showing the #1 being worn.

Dave

[quote]Lastly- I am not saying that the Funeral 2nd luft did not exist in the period, what I will say is that most of these started life as yellow gripped 2nd lufts.

Paul, I have been following this thread with much skepticism about anyone ever coming to any concrete conclusion, especially about the 1st & 2nd Rail, or Army whatever. But on the 2nd Luft are you saying the grips started out yellow and were painted black or black and then painted yellow. I know of some Klaas wooden grips being painted yellow, but black being painted yellow or vice versa? My black handled Klaas "Funeral" that is referenced in Wittmann's book, has no traces of any paint and is black throughout. I have seen yellow and white painted black, and we both know those are fake. I know Denny has some black grip Army or 1st Rail or whatever you wish to call them, also without any traces of paint as well. I guess this will continue to muddy the waters even more. I think every 2nd Luft collection should have a black gripped example. It should however be black through and through and be called whatever anyone wants it to be called. No one has to buy one or even make any reference to them. They should just let those of us that wish to own one for the simple reason that we want to and we could give a shirt less what anybody else thinks. Johnson did have a black gripped 2nd Luft presentation on his site a couple of years ago that had the birth date along with date of death inscribed on the crossguard. According to some on this forum, it was probably just put on there to further it's merchantability. Of course he might have had it on when he was buried and one of the gravediggers removed it for prosperity.

I won't venture an opinion on this one except to show a pic of a 2nd Luft that had the paint scrubbed off it and used at a wedding as a black gripped dagger (easy to see as you are able to compare the black w/the other lighter colored grips present). What was it used for? (Maybe it should be called a "Wedding Dagger"? and used to represent the d e e p Depression the groom was about to go through)?

MUST have had a specific use OR it was just a (optional from the factory) black grip? (Also looks as if the blade of the "blackie", "wedding" dagger may have been damascus?) I'm clueless....
Denny

Mike what I meant is that I own Klaas examples that are black grips which have been period painted yellow. I believe they were originally sold as std daggers. I make no judgement as to if black grip 2nd lufts are a legitimate period variation.
BTW, if all armies started life as white grips as some contend, why whould klaas paint their's yellow...

Nice picture Denny! I've got it now! These were designed for married officers only. They knew when they got married there would soon be a funeral. Makes sense to me.

Paul, I knew that was what you meant, I just wanted to stir the pot a little. I know you are hiding a lot of those Klaas with all sorts of different colored grips. I think it would be difficult to remove all remnants of a coat of paint regardless of the color. I was never one to adhere to the notion that all army grips started life white. Got me back on that one didn't ya?

I'm introducing this for the sake of discussion:
Let's assume that Dennys theory is correct and a black gripped dagger was used for special occasions. Is it possible that the owner just ordered one dagger with a regular grip and an extra black grip and changed them to suit the occasion? Before the advent of screw in chokes it was somewhat common to order shotguns with extra barrels.

Every day something comes along in this hobby,let's hope for a photo.I like what Houston wrote about the Pioneer and Signal Corps first time for that but that's why were here.The other thing this dagger may have been made and never issued to the R.R.

I can't see anyone possessing 2 grips, 1 for special occasions AND the black 1? Why don't we see more of the black gripped daggers? I contend they filled a slot, but what it was I don't have a clue....
Denny

Paul
I own some very interesting stuff that KLAAS made myself. Why they seemed to be the only or nearly only group engaged in the manufacturing of these "oddities", I can only guess.

Boils down to everyone's personal decision as to what purpose they served, in lieu of period documentation. That may be lost forever?

I still believe they served some purpose, but what, I'm not sure of.........

I'll admit to once believing they were 1st rails, but have since become skeptical and personally throw mine into the Army classification. STILL a very expensive ARMY (but in all fairness seems to be pushed, pricewise, by a bunch of rare and well conditioned Armys) and one that many people will spend their hard earned money on, including me, when it's "righteous", in my eyes anyway.....

Denny

Buying an extra grip would certainly be less expensive than buying a complete dagger just for special occasions. As we all know grips can be changed in less time than it's taking me to type this. Anyway; My thoughts.
Jim

For sake of argument, at least everyone should acknowledge the solid black grips are period and original. If we can all agree on that, then you would have to agree they are rare simply because of their numbers. Rare pieces bring a higher premium than an ordinary piece. Regardless of what purpose they served, they are pleasing to the eye and if you like them, buy them. Just because you can't validate their purpose, one shouldn't bad mouth someone who likes them just because they exist. Anybody want to sell their black grip 2nd Luft?

Mike
You grabbed that picture, did you? That was taken at Eric Hartmann's (the Famous Ace of Luftwaffe flying fame) wedding.

It shows me that there was definitely a black gripped 2nd Luft made and in use during the period when Hartmann was married. It could find NO reason to change colors or be painted? Never had it, never will, the paint that is. Looks like it had a damascus blade, too.

You read about regulations and catalog specs, OR lack of around the color black, and then wonder why anyone would have sported a black gripped 2nd Luft OR Army, but I know they did. A couple of Armys that I own have ZERO traces of paint same as your 2nd Luft. Another was painted yellow and is peeling everywhere. I think it may have boiled down to personal choice as to the color of the grip even though no documentation exists stating black as an option. That is really no surprise as that happens today in many cases where certain options are omitted in docs until asked for by the buyer. May also have been some specific use such as 1st Rail, Funeral, wedding, or whatever......dependent upon the dagger type. Our guess is as good as any?
Denny

I still believe that the term 1st model RW dagger will stick for years to come unless something that shows proof positive that it was used for a different and specific use. Calling it a black handled army is incorrect as well because there is no proof that it was worn by the army either. And throwing it in with army pile is replacing one error with another. Thus we are left with a dagger that was not worn by anyone that we know of and had no known purpose. I don't think that the majority of collectors who have this dagger in their collection would be very enthusiastic about this type of revised definition. I, personally, will change my mind only when proof positive to the contrary surfaces.

mvogel
Thank Goodness my opinion differs from yours. We seem to be at opposite ends of the spectrum, most times and that's fine.

I, as you state, in the absence of proof positive, will allow my black gripped daggers to remain with my Army group and until which time.......

It's every man (opinion) for himself......

Denny

would it be possible in that pic that the grip is actually a dark orange grip, and not black?
im glad you found that pic, as i was too lazy to dig out my book, and scan and post lol
i was trying to compare anything else in that photo with what we KNOW is black, and came up with this question.
maybe take a photo of something with a camera and set camera on black and white, and compare dark orange items to black ones........

Denny,

Have you ever measured the length of tho grips on your various Army daggers ?

Dave

Dave
Only enough to see that they fall within a range and are not all exactly the same length.
Denny

Just picked up this one. It's about 99% painted and has the late Klaas trademark with just the birds

I have a very worakble theory as to why the Klass army with black-painted-white-grip existed. My theory is backed up with some evidence. As you know, there were documented shortages of trolon, as mentioned in WKC Factory files. Reason: the resins used to make the grips contained components necessary to make gun powder and explosives. And obviously, as the war got under way, the Third Reich needed these things mroe than they needed dress daggers. Solution: do whatever could be done to continue to make daggers. Therefore, we see galalith, celluloid with wood and plaster cores, bone, painted wood, and other experimental materials used. My assertion is that Klaas got their hands on some grips that were intended for use either for a never-produced 3rd Reich dagger, or another dagger for export. They painted them white and used them to complete Army daggers.

One other bit of evidence that supports my theory is that the tangs (and grips) on the Klaas daggers in question are LONGER than standard army daggers. It seems possible that the grips already existed (in slightly longer state) and the tangs were made longer to accomodate these grips. Of course, we'll never know if my theory is correct. But, given that 95% of the blacked-grip army daggers out there have traces of white paint, I'm fairly convinced that there never were 1st model Railway daggers.

It should also be pointed out that while Klaas produced the majority of these pieces (98% or better, based on our collector experience), there are one or two pieces that have been documented by other makers. Maybe they too got their hands on some of those black grips

Craig,
"given that 95% of the black-grip army daggers out there have traces of white pain".
That is one statistic which I didn't know about, and this would certainly suggest to me the unlikely existence of the so called "Railway" dagger.
Nonetheless, I would still pay the retail price for such a dagger simply for his unique black grip characteristic and nothing else.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Original-WWII-1st-Model-Railway-Dag...QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
For anyone with a burning desire to own one of these here's an example on Ebay:

Jim
This one looks odd to me. Finish appears to be nickel and scabbard isn't the typical scabbard used by Klaas. I'd bet that this one was made to "sell".
Denny

Same seller is also selling an interesting "Water Protection Police Dagger"


Link

Denny:
I noticed that too and figured the seller had "buffed it up nice an Pretty" to get more for it!
Jim

Ahhh, bullschit. All this theorizing is just a bunch of hogwash. For me and most folks this will always be the fist model RW. Thats how I like it. Who cares about all the rest. Historical correctness sounds almost like political correctness and I don't want none of it. Nothin' but a bunch o' baloney.

I think this is a good time to put this subject to rest and refocus our attention to another contoversial dagger: The Postle dagger. I always wondered why they cost so much when they were worn not only by all Postle workers and Mail carriers but also by all truckdrivers for UPS and FEDEX. These daggers helped in assisting old ladies on Social Security to open letters and small packages when the arthritis got too bad. Even the Gestapo, disguised as Postle workers, were using this dagger to pick locks on suspected Meth labs and arrest the operators.
Its a shame that the cost for such a utility device has soared out of sight.

Oh, I forgot to respond to Jim M's posting. The dagger you show is a Spanish replica. Here is a pic of a REAL 1st RW. There is not the slightest trace of white paint on the handle. Not even under the pommel and ferrule.

Its a Klaas with the asterisk on the scabbard band.

Manfred,
That's exactly the one I wish to have !

Manfred:
Nice spotting of a replica from the pictures provided. Someone is going to learn an expensive lesson here
I could buy into these being Armys with a substitute material being used for the grip except for the extra long tang. Even if these black grips were ones to be used for a dagger that was never made; Would a maker really go through the extra trouble and expense to have a special long tang run of Army blades?
A little white spray paint Manfred and yours will look as good as new!
Jim

I love the black grips they just look GREAT, controversy and all. I too believe that it was a cheaper/more available material and Klaas wanted to save a $, but who knows, I am still FAR too inexperienced to comment on it now. I am however still looking for an authentic black gripped Red Cross officers... if anyone knows of one available.

Obviously there are some noticeable differences of opinion on the black grips and what it all means. And although my perspective might be a little different, I think Craig’s and some other ideas for the reasons for the painted black plastic grips have some merit. Craig cites documented shortages of Trolon in WKC factory files. As regards the use of black plastic grips in production, insofar as the painted examples are concerned, the fact remains that they were painted to imitate something else. And that includes some where the paint has been removed to make them “black grips” for resale purposes.

Serious shortages of the chemical feed stocks for phenolic resins were evident in military production circa 1942 by which time the production of daggers had probably already ceased. Like with other items intended for the Wehrmacht spot shortages were experienced before then. But what could have killed Trolon (Gusskunstharz/cast phenolic resin) as a grip material at first IMO was not as much a shortage of basic chemicals as it was the labor/time intensive process required to make it. My point being that with some minor differences the feed stocks for cast and molded phenolic resins are essentially the same. But the time and energy to produce a dark colored molded part, instead of light colored cast resin part is considerably less, with molded parts being as machinable as cast parts.

When you factor in that molding resins became more available as German industry shifted away from civilian production. The most obvious downside is that the grips had to be painted which at best was not a permanent solution because of the problem of paint loss. And possibly why it was not adopted more widely at the time(?). Whatever the reason, Klass in spite of what others may have used, acted independently and apparently secured an alternative source for grips using a black plastic resin as other makers sought out other alternatives.

Some period background: Dynamit AG. (formerly: Alfred Nobel & Co. Werke) in Troisdorf/Rheinland was not the only game in town for plastics. Dynamit-Nobel during the war specialized in munitions having shifted its efforts from civilian products to military production. Under various names the factories at Troisdorf besides Trolon also made Trolitan (Phenolharz/conventional Bakelite). And Troplast (Harnstoffharz/urea resin), Trolitul (polystyrene) and other types of plastics. And while Dynamit-Nobel was a player: It was dwarfed by chemical giant I.G. Farbenindustrie AG. And in competition with some other phenolic resin makers such as Dr. Fritz Raschig GmbH which also specialized in cast phenolic resins as did Chemische Werke Albert, Augsberger Kunstharzfabrik AG., Firma Wedig und Reuß (etc.). If molding resins are added to the mix the number of possible makers is dramatically expanded.

It would seem to me that there is still some work needed on multiple fronts before the final chapter is written on just where the black grips fit into the picture. FP

Good Explaination Fred of the materials and the key players. But it still leaves the nagging problem of these black grips and the associated blade tangs being longer than regular Army examples.
Jim

That my friend is where the collection of information and a current reappraisal of all available information comes in. Houston IMO was right on when he pointed out: "so called ... Candidate Degen is in fact an SS Officer's Degen” ... and “should not go without challenge and we should try to be correct in our terminology”. With that topic demonstrating what a current reappraisal can do instead of relying on postwar books, sales catalogs, web sites etc. etc.

The point being that what somebody 1, 5, 10, 20, or even 30 years ago in catalogs, books, whatever (having shaped current thinking) may be in error. And more to the point with the black gripped examples, were they just manufacturing variations or were they intentionally made longer?? I don’t know. But I think until some hard data is developed at this instant in time the only thing really for certain is that there were some manufacturing anomalies. With after reviewing the discussion the “why” part of it still a question mark. Regards, FP

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