UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Hunting, Forestry, and Shooting Forum Gorings TIME Cover Tie Piece

Hhmmm, not working,,same size,,sorry guys.....

I'm going to post anyway..,,, this to the best of my knowledge has never been posted before..

The reverse... IF you look real careful you will see on the pin the cage / swastika that held the sapphires. It was damaged from ripping out the gems and a new one perfectly made replaced it..

wish this was bigger..

Still, you can see this is mostly hand done. The details are incredible.. In hand a stunning piece. In my opinion one of the best of 3rd reich jewelry..

This has disappeared in to a private collection. The auction was years ago and you rarely if ever see any of the pieces..

There were 10 or so pieces that the family were auctioning/selling... From what I heard IF they would have taken my,our offer for this piece [and an offer for the AH ring] it was as much/more as the total they got for everything... Ah greed,,a MFer... Bill is laughing his ass off.. ........

a topic started in the HR forum;

http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/~germand2/ubbthreads.php/topics/344227.html#Post344227

Imho Houston Coates, an experienced collector of hunting items and a huntsman himself, did know very well why he insisted on his question....
Regards,

Hey G,

Who was the maker? Any marks? Thanks

I would love to see comparisons as well.

Wotan,, I'll repost my response to Mr. Coats

- " Houston, if your referring to the tie bar,,there is no "these". As far as I searched and the owner, there is the one.. The one that was a present to Goring. The one on the TIME cover, which is this one posted.. It has an impeccable provenance.. Yes, some years ago it was at the MAX and I believe the owner had won a prize for it or another of his items... If you know of another with the provenance please let us know or myself privately as the owner would love to acquire it or at least see/know about it..

- I'll repeat it: The provenance is impeccable.. It is the exact piece from the photo. It was picked up at HGs residence with another famous piece,,documented by the soldier who found it. It went from the soldier who found it, to one other, then to Bill Blynn.. Bill later tracked down the soldier who found it and interviewed him. He told a fascinating account of how he found it and how it got sent to the states. Myself and another member here heard it.. - Comparisons,,Bill knew the piece would be scrutinized and every detail of it was confirmed.

At the time of my first post I did not have permission to post the reverse of the piece. Since Bills passing and it has changed hands I consider my promise to Bill fulfilled and I now have posted the reverse shot.. There was a shot of the reverse when it was auctioned off. My photo was the first and the only photo of the reverse showing the frame of the original Swastika,,which has since gone missing and has yet to be found .

Mikee,,not much space for even a content stamp! Everything was tested when it was being rebuilt. A few have thought it Zeitner as it was HGs favorite jeweler.. Something we'll probably never know..

[Andy, your ever so right! ]

Dear Gaspare, I always appreciate your unbeatable knowledge concerning rings, appropriate jewelry and their manufacturing. But in this special case I have my own observations and see them parted especially due to Houston s comments.
I have read the whole thread here and at the ring section, therefore I do know what you have answered Houston Coates.

Let me specify: Goerings items have been heavily faked (and phantasy Goerig items have been produced) all the time alredy since end of WII. The fakers respective their clients obviously did not avoid any costs how high these might have been.

You are no -dagger guy- but perhaps you do know the prominent and EXTREMELY valuable Goering Reichsmarschall dagger and it?s final story. During the time it was unknown to most what has happened to/with the dagger it suddenly (in all it s worthness!) did surface on collector s market. F.J.Stephens clearly could proof (what has also been my immediate opinion when looking on certain details) that this certain dagger has been totally faked. Some time later TTWittmann gained access to the few poor remaining parts of the ORIGINAL Reichsmarschall dagger, it has been ruined for ever, he did documt it in one of his books, I think the luftwaffe book) and the dagger which did surface has been really a total fake.

Goering s stickpin shown here in detail, thanks to your ongoing generously efforts, imho has SEVERAL points I personally cannot believe it is the same piece that has been worn by Goering on the TIME cover and Houston once obviously has thought in the same direction. The edge which is surrounding the green stones is embellished in a kind which has been used during the second half of the 19th century, perhaps until the early years of 20th century. This style was replaced by art deco and realism so I highly doubt that Goering as a Connaisseur of art and as modern sensualist would appreciate such an "old" style jewelery for himself. This fact also seems to be proofed by other, doubtless Goering artefacts. Even more, the official DJ badge clealy shows a stag carcass head and the one on the questionable stick pin shows a stag head -in life-. The DJ emblem does lack generally overall in certain details. Finally to me the deer antler looks like done by a person without the least zoological knowledge. In Europa, in the alps region there is such a creature called Raurackl or Wolperdinger and this certain stag looks in some points like one of them.
The lack of ANY proofmark, ANY manufacturer s brand, ANY contence mark (which has been regulated by law!) is another strong point.
For me this stickpin looks like done out of an elder, original piece of jewelry where parts have been used (therefore removed marks) to fake the prominent stickpin, unfortunately by a skilled jeweler but an unskilled (concerning history, style, taste and zoology) person, but this all could gain ground at collectors who do only appreciate an admittedly impressive piece of jewelry without trying to understand it and it s background.
This is my honest, personal opinion concerning this stickpin in person.
Regards,

[quote=Gaspare]Wotan,, I'll repost my response to Mr. Coats

[i]- " Houston, if your referring to the tie bar,,there is no "these". As far as I searched and the owner, there is the one.. The one that was a present to Goring. The one on the TIME cover, which is this one posted.. It has an impeccable provenance.. Yes, some years ago it was at the MAX and I believe the owner had won a prize for it or another of his items... If you know of another with the provenance please let us know or myself privately as the owner would love to acquire it or at least see/know about it..[/i]

What do you think about this one?

http://www.theoldbrigade.co.uk/viewitem.php?id=1508

[quote=wotan]Dear Gaspare, I always appreciate your unbeatable knowledge concerning rings, appropriate jewelry and their manufacturing. But in this special case I have my own observations and see them parted especially due to Houston s comments.
I have read the whole thread here and at the ring section, therefore I do know what you have answered Houston Coates.

Let me specify: Goerings items have been heavily faked (and phantasy Goerig items have been produced) all the time alredy since end of WII. The fakers respective their clients obviously did not avoid any costs how high these might have been.

You are no -dagger guy- but perhaps you do know the prominent and EXTREMELY valuable Goering Reichsmarschall dagger and it?s final story. During the time it was unknown to most what has happened to/with the dagger it suddenly (in all it s worthness!) did surface on collector s market. F.J.Stephens clearly could proof (what has also been my immediate opinion when looking on certain details) that this certain dagger has been totally faked. Some time later TTWittmann gained access to the few poor remaining parts of the ORIGINAL Reichsmarschall dagger, it has been ruined for ever, he did documt it in one of his books, I think the luftwaffe book) and the dagger which did surface has been really a total fake.

Goering s stickpin shown here in detail, thanks to your ongoing generously efforts, imho has SEVERAL points I personally cannot believe it is the same piece that has been worn by Goering on the TIME cover and Houston once obviously has thought in the same direction. The edge which is surrounding the green stones is embellished in a kind which has been used during the second half of the 19th century, perhaps until the early years of 20th century. This style was replaced by art deco and realism so I highly doubt that Goering as a Connaisseur of art and as modern sensualist would appreciate such an "old" style jewelery for himself. This fact also seems to be proofed by other, doubtless Goering artefacts. Even more, the official DJ badge clealy shows a stag carcass head and the one on the questionable stick pin shows a stag head -in life-. The DJ emblem does lack generally overall in certain details. Finally to me the deer antler looks like done by a person without the least zoological knowledge. In Europa, in the alps region there is such a creature called Raurackl or Wolperdinger and this certain stag looks in some points like one of them.
The lack of ANY proofmark, ANY manufacturer s brand, ANY contence mark (which has been regulated by law!) is another strong point.
For me this stickpin looks like done out of an elder, original piece of jewelry where parts have been used (therefore removed marks) to fake the prominent stickpin, unfortunately by a skilled jeweler but an unskilled (concerning history, style, taste and zoology) person, but this all could gain ground at collectors who do only appreciate an admittedly impressive piece of jewelry without trying to understand it and it s background.
This is my honest, personal opinion concerning this stickpin in person.
Regards,[/quote]


I don't like the pin at all.. Has to be Gold smith marked for sure also gold stamped...But of course my opinion does not matter..
Roger Stahl Steel he was importing items same time as Atwood and they worked together.. was a big seller (broker) and creator of fakes.. There is a Known solid silver hilt sword presented to Goering (blade made by Muller) 1938. Most of the ORIGINAL sword given to Goering is lost... Roger Steel brokered one that was a reproduction with synthetic stones rubies.. Also no silver smith marks etc..When I question BIG dealers about this sword they seem to know nothing.. (Problem is their pictured holding the reproduction) Here is the rub the original hilt and blade artwork has turned up Real rubies and correct sliver smith marks.. Now the reproduction with blade made by Muller has gone missing or underground and the people involved know nothing,, Never seen it.. most likely closet collector with big pocket book bought it.. I'm sure they had a iron clad story to go with these items...
Not talking about the Reichsmarschall dagger.. This Roger had created also.. Interesting how many of the original Goering jeweled daggers and swords were sold for the gems or the metals.. Scraped by the vets who brought them home..

You guys are comparing apples to oranges. Daggers and R. Steele, Stephens, Wittman has nothing to do with this piece...

Mr. Coats was head of security at the MAX long ago if I'm not mistaken. Also had a lot of ties to the MAX. His show had invited Bill and hosted this piece,, and in fact had won an award from the MAX while he was a big player there..
The fact that it is not a skull is how it was matched to the magazine. Even on a good copy you can see it is the same piece as the magazine.. I've never seen the LIFE magazine but understand it is a full page so maybe it can be seen better..

This piece wasn't brought out by Hollywood Specialties or big fanfare when it was discovered.. It was being taken apart at a pawn shop in Cleveland! Again comparing it to Atwood or Steels pieces has nothing to do with this piece, nor was the piece ever associated with either of them..
.
In this hobby we go by provanance.. I would say this piece has a better provanance than most of our own pieces. You guys dont like it,,fine. You don't have to. Bill has/had all the comparisons and had the provenance thoroughly checked out before he repaired it and announced he had the piece. All the while with guys like John Peppra and Rasmussin [spelling?] etc.calling trying to buy it from him. This piece has been traced accurately from capture to Bill Blynn..

3rd reich you didn't have to hallmark anything especially small items.. Besides where do you think it would have been stamped without much damage.. Doesn't really matter much because we don't have it, nor is it being touted as a holy grail. I posted the reverse photo so it could be seen with the only shot of the original swastika... I'm sure the new owner is very happy with it..

Appreciate you comments and opinions..

Yes, I totally understand your point.. Awards, big man on campus means nothing.. It sometimes is all smoke and mirrors..
What does this have to do with the originality of the piece..
I just don't buy a item on providence .I don't need to. I buy pieces on there own merit and period information. There is a fine line between the word providence and just a plain story..
In my experience with German jewelry from the 20s and 30s it is always hallmarked.. It has to be... And I have many pieces mostly silver from good smiths..
As we do not know each other or what if any experience collecting I have I understand why you did not like the comparison to the swords I made..
It is just the originals where hallmarked silver with retailer and or silver smith.. And they were given to Goering.
Frankly it looks like something You would see on the website of a very shady unnamed dealer and we all know him. If I remember correctly he also has providence with his gold items..
I hate forums as everyone is a expert.. And it is a great way to make something NEW ,,,OLD again..
I'm sure there is a lot of $$$$$ involved with this item.. Why do you need to rely on Providence?? As most in a court of law is just hearsay..
There are period German publications called the (Goldschmide) (came out monthly) There should be pictures of this piece in this publication... I have many but not all..
So that would be a good source to find good period photos.. That would help this item. But even if this is period made it would not match period photos as the providence says the stones were replaced and item rebuilt..
Just a opinion and I guess (you ) do not know if it is educated or not.. That is the beauty of the internet and forums..

D. , I would say your unique among collectors IF provanance isn't so important to you! ..

All I am stating is:
That the piece existed as from the period proof photos of it from TIME and LIFE.
That the piece turned up in a pawnshop years ago in Cleveland.
That there is a provanance tracing it from the Sgt. that got it to the man I met who was the owner at the time..
That the piece had to be restored/rebuilt.
That IF checked it would be found to be the same piece as in the photo.

Yes I too own many of the trade booklets for the 3rd reich jewelers and engravers. They are great for research of period jewelry....
And, that you are incorrect. That small items did not have t have a content mark ,hallmark.. I own several 100 3rd reich era pieces of jewelry and many are not content marked..

So it is what it is,,,and I guess it is not for everyone... IF you like it great,,if not,,then don't....,G.

Great topic. I love mysteries.

Without a good copy of a photo of the original in wear I suspect we will never know for certain if the one shown above is the same.

The point that is the most serious to me is the lack of a gold content marking or the maker's logo / mark .... but then again, the most famous TR jewelry - the Honor Ring - had none !

Anybody have more photos ?

Dave

Hey G,
I normally agree with you, you know that. Respectfully I'm sorry G, but this piece is highly questionable imo. From the closeups provided from Time. Take a look at the eye sockets, completely different. It's true small items did not have to be marked, but a lot are marked because they had a registered trade mark, so they did stamp them of course. I can't imagine a respectable company that would have a registered trade mark would not put there mark on it. I would differ with you there is plenty of space to mark this piece.

Damast, I have many of these mags and more as well, but nothing.

wotan, I absolutely agree!

Dave, I honestly believe Gahr didn't but his mark on the SS ring because It interfered.

Mikee,

Correct. There was not much place on that ring for anything more.

But, If some big leader said "no proof marks on my badge / ring / tie clap / etc" ... then there were none applied in my opinion. Normal rules didn't apply if the leader said they didn't.

* Jewelry for those that don't know was marked after completion.. When this piece was done where would you put the stamp.? It is only 3" long,,1 1/8" at its widest..Any jeweler would say the same,,they wouldn't stamp it.. The gold, emeralds, sapphires are all soft. Even with the leather cushion under them you wouldn't risk the stamp from the other side on the gold. One little mistake and weeks,months worth of work ruined.. Try it sometime...
- Imagine it Mikee,,The Hitler ring,,Sepp D,s ring,,the SAARDANK rings,, the Honor ring, the ring for the German film industry,, ALL special, rare rings with 100% provanance,,,,none of them stamped for Gold or Silver nor maker..

Do you guys actually think that the owner would have invested the time and money if he wasn't absolutely sure? The better photos of the pictures were checked, the provenance was checked to the point he put the Sgt. on tape about the chain of custody. Myself, Vinny, John Peppera and others have seen/heard all this..

I'm not out to prove anything. Just wanted to finally show the reverse shot with the cage of the Swastika because it was never seen before and the piece has been lost.. ,G.

Correct, provenance means nothing for example (the so and so collection) (came from a veterans family) (so and so sold it so it must be good) (if he invested this much into it it must be original)
(so and so wanted to buy it also) (found it in a basement payed nothing for it).. In general this is all window dressing..
You have also said this a couple of times the term (lost) ????
I do not understand as a quick search on the internet and I found it for sale on (THE) website many pictures.. Nothing to lose . Matter of fact I think it has been polished as some of the scratches are gone.. And the same commentary is provided in the description.. And what a website it is..
Guess I have been very lucky in my buying of 20s and 30s era German jewelry as all have either content stamp or maker.. Even with rubies and red coral etc..Even the Big leader stuff as Dave put it.. But than I collect certain Jewelers and artists. I have not looked at my Goldsmiths mags Yet and German handwork books..
I own bound copies of Life 30s to 70s and the picture does not help your cause.. Just look at it..
Again as I buy on the merits of the item 1st and it is great if you can find period reference.
A collector should not be talked into buying a item if you need to be there is a problem as the item should sell itself..
Maybe ask the checkbook if it is OK. original real high-end stuff always sells..
Just a opinion ..

D.., IF the provenance of it coming from the Sgt. that acquired it,,to the friend he sold it to,,to the pawn shop where Bill got it is 'window dressing' then there is nothing more to say..

The photos here and measurements I took myself from seeing it a few times in hand.. I also have some appraisal letters from the jeweler Potter & Mellon on it and some of his other treasures..
No one it talking anyone in to buying it,,certainly not me.. Since Bills death it has changed hands a couple times. Where it is now is no concern of mine..

* Bills family had approached me before it went to auction years ago asking where the frame to the Swastika was.. Last time I saw it was over 10 years ago or so attached to the pin. See photo, red arrow.. IF there is another photo showing that Swastika I'd like to see it as it would be good news....

Glad many of your 3rd reich small pieces are marked. I invite you to share some photos with the guys over on the Honor Ring forum here..

Well there are golden Honour rings that are marked, and talking about Sepp Dietrich, he received a golden honour ring of the city of Frankfurt (Reichshandwerkertag) in 1936 which he wore till his death in 1966.
These rings bear a goldmark and a maker initials mark ( JF = Julius Fuchs) on the inside.

http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/orders-decorations-third-reich/golden-honourring-city-frankfurt-ehrenring-der-stadt-des-deutschen-handwerks-1938-a-224650/

Ger

Some things were marked some were not; the ss honor ring- not. I believe that during the period it was not a requirement for them to be on there. Stamps can sometimes be dated to year of manufacture. This ring above could have been made in 1938 or earlier. The engraving to Dietrich has been added after the stamps were on the ring. You can see that because the 1938 avoids running into the stamps. 1938 or earlier would be the date the ring was made- you would have to consult a silver makers guide to find out if there is a date for the stamp.

It was not required to stamp small pieces such as rings, cufflinks etc. Were some stamped,,sure. Many not.

Sepps elaborate ring given to him during the war from the LAH to him isn't stamped. The ring from German Chamber of Crafts!!yeah that better be stamped!

This sure is a beautiful piece of jewelry, thank you Gaspare for starting a fine discussion.
Some will always doubt a piece like this and there is something to it.
I guess if you look at any of the 3rd reich stuff, any of it could be made post war, and plenty is.
But I doubt there is another like this.
What a great thread.
I hope all my daggers are real??
Ed

BINGO!!!!!

Dave, Absolutely agree. Interfered w/ H's wishes/demands, Interfered with space/cosmetics etc.

G, You stated it was tested? Do you know how many karats?

G, I'm not in any way trying to be argumentative at all. It depends on the item when an item is marked. With several parts/pieces such as this one, before it's assembled a skilled smith would identify an area to be marked and mark it appropriately prior to assembly, for ease and for possible unnecessary damage, but damage very unlikely. I have a few like this, the part/piece was marked then assembled and all the marks fit easily within 1/8" width area with absolutely no damage. Normally the maker mark is punched harder then the rest, but still would not cause any damage soft medal or not. I must review my documents I think if one was to mark an item it gave the area. I have forgotten so much lately lol.

I would like to make one thing clear so we all are on the same sheet of music and I have mentioned this in the past but needs to be addressed on occasion. "The law does not state small items" or mentions what those items are, such as rings, cuff links etc. It simply states "may not on gold and silver jewelry be attached". That makes a big difference right! There is an amendment for silver plated cutlery but that's for another topic.

I'm also a stickler and need to catch myself at times.You know I hate the term Hallmarks when it comes to German marks because they are not. I know it's become a catch all phrase, oh well so be it. I absolutely love the simplicity and ease to which these laws work and I hope they never change.

Sorry if I got off topic.

Almost forgot, Mike AKA Byzanti, Would you mind explaining your meaning I would appreciate it. You stated "you would have to consult a silver makers guide to find out if there is a date for the stamp". Not with German marks of this period or am I missing your point. Thank you.

Or in this case goldmakers. Sorry- was also speaking in generalized catch alls. So with respect to silver at least as an example- there are websites such as 925-1000.com and silvercollection.it as well as the tardy book of international hallmarks of silver that are tremendous helps in identifying and dating a piece. Most of what we collect are silver pieces so those sites can be very helpful I have found

Mikee,,this is all good debating, 'foruming'!
- no jeweler [then or now] would put their hallmark/makers mark on a piece before finale assembly.. It is the inspected proof,,that after final inspection it gets stamped,,its approved by and worthy to have the firms mark on it. .. Stamping before finalization could lead to a piece that was assembled poorly or one piece not up to par represents the jewelers final product.. Just wasn't done.

Photos checked, material checked. It's not mine,it was a long time ago.,I don't remember gold content.. I had the appraisal for many of Bills items. Many got lost by the family. Items like the Coburg window, Gauleiters salver, Napoleon sword, AH ring, watercolors and other pieces when I knew of friends that got the pieces I sent them the documentation and appraisal.

Small items didn't have to be stamped and most did what they wanted during the 3rd reich anyway.. During the 3rd reich about 50% were stamped with a makers or content marked..
I have over 300 3rd reich era military theme rings. About half have one stamp or the other. Collectors around the world with large collections will probably tell you the same...

It's a nice piece. Historical. Good provenance. Made / rebuilt with fine materials by a great jeweler in Cleveland [Potter & Mellon]. Wouldn't matter what would be shown here,,there will always be those that don't like a certain piece for whatever reason.. I wanted to show the reverse photo here,and did.. Thanks guys its been fun...,G.

Gaspare,

What is the timeframe of all this happening ?

And what are the Coburg Window and the Gauleiters salver ?

Dave,, I wrote the topic in 2007.. I met bill when I was investigating the Hitler ring.. Took him a couple years before he even let me photograph anything..
Vinny and I had gone to visit John Peppera and he was mentioning Bill had this piece for years and he had been trying to get it from him. John and him lived within 10 miles of each other.. John was certain the piece was authentic as were Vinny and myself after we saw and heard the research..

He was a golden age collector who had many treasures. The other 2 pieces you mention are just 2 of the famous pieces he's owned. They went to auction when he died..
The owner of the Salver is a member here and its up to him if he wants to make a comment. The Coburg window had another with it. 2 wonderful stained glass windows that went to auction. The 2 windows the Napoleon sword, AH ring, watercolors and other pieces I believe have appeared in the small War Booty books as well and the large collected War Booty book..

Coburg window

yeah,,thats it Mike,,thanks!

Bill liked the high end stuff. . Had to be something stupendous, thrilling, rare etc. Bills real thing was research.. Each of his items had a ton of documentation..

Just a tiny bit of his other stuff.. Goring command flag,,, Giant size Alfred Rosenburg MK , and a very hotly in search of sword!!! [maybe found by now??]

G, I guess we can go round and round on this one, but the law is clear and Jewelry comes in many forms/ sizes. It's to easy to state just small items, no it's, "Jewelry" in general, big difference. Maybe I'm being to technical but that was the law so that's how I view it.

G, That makes no sense to me, to state it wasn't done. We can't state all items were stamped after completion. Rings of course but not complicated items unless it's obvious. With my items in my collection it would have broke no doubt, if it was marked after completion. Sometimes I'm sure it made sense to mark before assembly. Nothing in the laws that state when, of course not, that's left up to the smith's knowledge.

G, We all know some items where marked and some not, with all markings or some. But there is very good reasons "why". The laws are clear on this. I can give you a number of reasons why an item was or wasn't marked. It's not that they did what they wanted. If you understand the laws you would understand the why's if you will.

G, Sorry I'm totally lost with your statement, "It is the inspected proof,,that after final inspection it gets stamped,,its approved by and worthy to have the firms mark on it. .. Stamping before finalization could lead to a piece that was assembled poorly or one piece not up to par represents the jewelers final product.. Just wasn't done.

G, You stated it was tested? Do you know what the gold content is?

I guess until better pictures surface the safe bet is to reserve opinions.

Thank you as always. Best!

G, Forget the gold content question. I reread your statement. Thank you.

Mike, Thank you for your answer. I understand I generalize a lot myself lol. Yes absolutely very good sources you mention. Thank you I appreciate it.

Mikee, I used to race flat track,,I can go round and round,,as long as its to the left - your answering it for me - "it would have broke no doubt, if it was marked after completion."
It is why most of the more delicate, and small pieces were not marked..

* for pieces that were stamped:

A firms stamp was their final approval! That the piece passes the rigorous inspection of the maker/jeweler. That the piece after checking was worthy of the firm and therefor get stamped. That the maker would be proud to have anyone see or know the piece was made by their firm. Quality control my friend!

IF, if the piece was stamped before final assembly or before it was finished in completion doesn't make sense. A part could be stamped. Then assembled poorly, or another part could be defective or sub par and used in final assembly. Why would the maker want his firms stamp on the piece. Big and small jewelers ,custom knife makers,glassblowers,furniture makers etc. will all tell you the same thing,,Nothing is getting their firms name on it until it passes the final inspection and its perfect!

G, lol.. no, delicate and very fine pieces are marked if possible and that's not the reason.

G, "A firms stamp was their final approval! That the piece passes the rigorous inspection of the maker/jeweler. That the piece after checking was worthy of the firm and therefor get stamped. That the maker would be proud to have anyone see or know the piece was made by their firm. Quality control my friend! "

You mean like the item in discussion :grin:. Anyway that's not the reason, but yes a part of it true but not the point I'm really trying to make here. Anyway we will just have to agree to disagree. All the best!