UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories The Honor Ring Forum Superfake /good copy

Gaspare.
I don't pull the wires about the ring which Pink posted. The ring was sold on Yahoo Japan auction. A military toy shop owner made one hundred rings and it is NO1 good copy I have ever seen. Thanks.

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BlackJack my friend ,thank you very much for the photos!

Well whether you believe or not there are reproduction HRs that are so good they can be called a SuperFake,,that is,,a copy so good it fools most,,and even those who study the ring must take a 2nd and 3rd look! I guess it all depends on the proficiency of the collector looking at the ring but for sure there are SuperFakes.....

This is a VERY respectable copy.. With a tiny bit more work,,a blank band then a professional engraver whos proficient in the Gahr engraving styles and probably 99% of us could NOT distinguish it from an original from PHOTOS ALONE....
Thanks again BlackJack.

Thank you so much. My Friend Gaspare. Superfake is on my site.

Superfake.

wow!,,,another item this best bought from a vet or with an iron clad money back guarantee,,,these fakes are astoundingly good

Yeah.Scary to say the least
Seiler

For those NON believers! Well, here it is in all its glory..
Be carefull out there!

Thanks BlackJack!

Dear Gaspare,all members. Please enjoy new many fresh pictures of original ring and copies on my web site. My web site is not for selling the ring. Many copy rings were made for sale. But my superfake was not make for sale. I remained silent about Superfake.
I was afraid it makes bad, because it is dangerous rings for high price sale.
The superfake was not mass produce. It is my private ring not for sale. Now. There are no dangerous rings made in Japan I have ever seen make bad. Thanks.

BJ, Thanks for the new photos.. I know your one of the good guys. I want the members to know your a collector like us,, and just show us these excellent SuperFakes to make us all more cautious when we go to look at a ring!
Thanks again.. .,G.

I take what I believe to be an accurate view on the "superfake" phenomenon in my upcoming book. A bit of a spoiler . . . I believe that no post-war ring has been made that will survive close scrutiny undetected. I believe that if studied, flaws will be found in any Totenkopf fake. So, "superfakes" may exist, but their existence depends on how you define superfake:

Superfake - a ring that will fool most of the people most of the time, and is difficult to discern from an original, with photos alone, then . . . they exist.

Superfake - a ring that, in unworn condition, will fool experts when studied in person, get papered by myself or Don Boyle . . . they don't.

IMO, if people had quit cranking out Nazi regalia like this post 1945, we wouldn't have to worry about it.

quote:

Originally posted by Craig Gottlieb:

Superfake - a ring that, in unworn condition, will fool experts when studied in person, get papered by myself or Don Boyle . . . they don't.

"Expert"?? What is an expert?. Printing pretty pictures a publishing them makes one an "Expert".

The guy who papers a bad ring is going to have serious problems. What process are you using to ascertain authenticity? before you paper one?.

Money is the motivation for these "Super fakes" So the money guys need to be looked at. As they have motive. How much do you charge for your paper?.

I talked to a jeweler who's been making custom jewelry his whole life and asked him what his opinion was on if there could be a perfect copy.
His comment was that it could not be done.There would always be some minute detail overlooked or that is not proper.
I respect his opinion and would think it to be true but think how close to perfect you could get is another question.
As far as what an expert is,I believe there are a handful of qualified and very knowledgable people out there who could be defined as expert and know these rings well enough to be given that title.Being an expert does not mean you could never make an error however in my opinion.

Hallo guys ! I have very carefully compared the fotos of this so colled superfake with original Honor ring and it hase the same floe as all other fakes before this one, it is much smaller ( i dont mean the band size but acual ) than original from which it was casted and that is the floe that always happend !
In my belife no yuller can make the exact copy of Gahr craftmanship, it simply cant be dane, becourse all original Honor rings have their own floes that are nown to those who carfully stady originals, for example Don and those guys yust cant be tricked with some "superfake", they cant !!!
Acualy it is quit simple when you learn abouth Honor rings, every ring is a little bit diferente but they are all made from the same molds, so they have the same manufactory floes, and if you wont to produce a superfake ring or lets say original post war Honor ring, you woud nead original mold and in my belife those molds were lost during the russian orgy in Berlin!!!

But what if someone steal have those molds and he diside to start producing Honor rings al over again, what than ?
What do you think abouth so colled mint Honor rings that are all the suden all over the place ? Do you belive the story abouth vets died and such BS storys, i dont !!!

Well this post went kinda close in one of my questions.How does an expert that has the right to publish appraisals gets qualified for such an action?And I'm not talking only about this difficult section(the HR) but also in other items that could be difficult to identify.On a second thought, are these people have a juristic backround?I mean, I buy something original and pay some extra money to get a proper appraisal, BUT when the time comes to resell it is there any possibility from a potential buyer not to accept the validity of the appraisal?So, the might question: is there any judge for the judges!?

I understand you quit weal since i hade simmilar problems during my time in this exelent hoby!
It is like this ( no names ), if someone who is considerd a high autority in lets say Honor rings ( since this is a ring forum )diside that some ring is original than it is original but what if he is mistaken who will be strong enough to explain his mistake and be taken sereus by colectors comunity !?
I have seen many times that someone was simply band from colectors forum ( not this one!!! )when he disagree with some helmets experts and the funny thing was that it was cleare to other members two that the helmet is questonable at list if not fake but they yust shut up and let them have their scame and i am tooking abouth some sirius money!
Colecting 3 Raich militaria is not yust nice hoby any more but it become sirius bizniss where is a lott of cash involved and where is cash there are bad aples truying to scame us!!!
I belive only thing left to as colectors is learning abouth this beoutifull hoby and listen to your own gutt !!!

So what I see here is that if a respectable expert makes a mistake, there will be noone else to understand it, and there is, he shoul be *at least* same degree respectable so a serious arguement can begin.

Also on your second incidence we have the classic case of black and white.If something is black, and 200 people say it is white, then the one person that sees the truth, he is not actually sees the thruth, because the truth is-as a matter of fact their truth, as in reality the majority makes the truth.

Maybe I'm taking this too much over to philosophy I hope at least we understood each other

Hello
Guys, I am having a difficult time following this thread with all the mispelling of words and so forth. Please just slow down and use spell check. Ron

Phatt , SSPOLICE,
all good points and the same questions many ask and want to know..
There's a few ways to obtain authentic military items for your collections.

One way is to go to an 'expert' ..Problem is some say there aren't any! But there are some out there.
You just have to be careful WHO you use and for WHAT.. You would not bring a Honor ring to Johnson and Wittman! ,,just like you wouldn't bring a foreign volunteer item To Don Bible.. For me anytime I see a dealer who offers a CoA [certificate of authenticity] for any and all items there's a problem. You just can't be a expert in everything!

Another way is to study and become proficient in a item well enough to know your buying a good piece.. This takes TIME.. This takes DEDICATION.. This will be EXPENSIVE [but cheaper than getting ripped off!]..
You must have ALL the reference books pertaining to the piece.. Learn about construction method of the piece.. Learn about the material itself the piece is made of.. Handle as many ORIGINAL like pieces as possible. Ask,,see, learn...You can not rush this. If you give enough time in study and can understand and retain it all you WILL eventually be able to buy a piece and be sure its authentic..

Got the idea BUT (sorry if I get you tired with this or getting off topic but I have to know).The people that do this job, do they have any papers from any authority, as a result of any kind of school(historical maybe?) or they're based on their experierce?I mean I know that someone with great experience is by far better than someone with papers (this apply in most jobs IMO) but in order for an appraisal to be valid from everyone, the person who puts the signature must be official against the law.Sorry for being the devils advocate I still have dark points in this matter.

Deciding what is original and what is not is half the fun of this hobby.An expert is one who has bought more crap than oneself. Yuf gots two learnt 2 spell amirikan two bee unnderstood.Oh yea! If someone has to tell you if its original or not you might not want to pay big bucks for it.

Phatt,,please, continue on as much as you'd like..

Schools,,authorities,,experience from where?,etc..Since this is the Honor ring forum lets use Don for an example..

Don has been authenticating rings for many years. He's seen 100's. He is the go to man for many a top dealer. When a dealer has a worrisome ring it goes to Don. He's authenticated rings for every top dealer out there.
He has the experience,,he is the authority. He's tested the material,,been thru archives,,dissected rings,,he's known a actual worker from the Gahr firm that was involved in making the Honor ring. Don is probably one of a handful of guys out there that know exactly down to the last detail how the ring was manufactured..
It's the same I'm sure with T.Wittman and daggers,,J.Casino and fiber/fabrics,,D.Bible and his warrant discs etc etc.,,guys have many years of hands on experience and yes, some have proper schooling to go along with it...

So, if your going to go the way of wanting/getting a CoA its just as important to know WHOS going to be actually looking at your item than know the item yourself,,again, that's IF your going that direction of a CoA....

Good to know you're not tired with it, and I must state I just love making this conversation.So the answer afterall is to find the proper guy for the proper item and also to be so respective that noone can doubt his judge.Fair enough.

quote:

Originally posted by Phatt:
Good to know you're not tired with it, and I must state I just love making this conversation.So the answer afterall is to find the proper guy for the proper item and also to be so respective that noone can doubt his judge.Fair enough.

I've been down "that road" before. Don responded to my query's with patients and respect. He enlightened me to details I would have never received ANYWHERE else. All free of charge. He has the respect of everyone I have talked to regarding Honor Rings. Gaspare ranks right "up there" as well.

By the way, NICE avatar!

Cheers, Pauli

Thank god we have Don but there is one thing that buders me, for example you get the paper from an expert ( i am not writhing abouth Don !!! ) saying that some item is 100% original 3 Raich made but after lets say one year you found out it is yust wery weal made fake 3 Raich regalia and you wont your money back but the saler refuse the refund, my isue is, can this so coled expert takes the responsibility for his mistake and he pays for his mistake or not !? That is where the problem lies, the paper isued by experts dasent have any real value in front of the low and until this is so, we will have all sorts of scames, specialy with such high profits that coud be earn real easy.
I dont wont to be missunderstud, i do trust Don and his Honor rings expertise but as SS colector i get burned several times and that happend when i bought stuff from respectable Europian dealers claiming that their stuff is 100% legit, they even send me the signed expertise. I head sirius problem with weal known evropian dealer from who i a bought nice looking SS M43 cap with signed expertise included and life time guarantie but after some time i found out that SS cap triangle insignia is yust weal made and eaged fake, off course i wonted my money back but while i was inspected the insignia i ripped a small part and that was enough for the dealer to refuse to exept the fake cap back but since i steal hade the signed expertise i was confident that i am protected by the low, but i was wrong.

You come to my words.That was exactly the meaning of my sayings when I was talking about the CoA publishers and the law.

In first place, who certifies them as an expert so they can judge right, and second, they should have a legal face so they could called into an apolgise by Law if the item they approved as original turns fake, because people depended on that paper and spent ammounts of money!

BTW, Thanks Mann