UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories SS & SA Uniform Forum Early SS officer cap opinion.

here with pics of an early officer cap, some thoughts would be appreciated, thank's

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Hello Pascal,,,,,Going off your images, I would treat this cap with some caution.The outside looks in remarkable condition for an early cap. Also the shape is of a much later type.I have never seen an ersatz sweat band on an early cap,these were brought in quite late in the Allgemeine period.It is difficult to tell whether the leather peak is old,I have seen these in all sorts of condition.Early white RZM linen label on a private purchase cap,, This one would take a lot of inspection and questions,,,,Stephen

I would pass on this one. Tellerform is unic for me for such an early cap, the tag�s position is very odd for me too, Ersatzband for an early visor ???. This are just my 5 cents input about it, enough to safe the hard earned money for it.

Hi,
thanks for the comments,

Here with pics of a PL cap with RZM tag and maker...But as said with leather sweat band and the typical early shape.

The "Tellerform" is not a problem for me, I suppose that all caps, if you remove the metal hooping, take this soft form.

But the only thing which realy disturbs me is this "ersatz" sweatband.

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PL -3.

Pascal,,,,, Boris Karloff springs to my mind !!!

Really SUPER pieces Pascal!
I love that early rezine sweatband, and white label, circa 34/35.
Congratulations on both of these!!!!
Peter.

Hi Peter,
thanks, I think I've seen such sweatband on WWI caps....Ersatz is more "Alkor" material no?

sorry for my wrong credit Pascal for the upper shown blakc Off. visor. The RZM tag's position is ok too.

Hi Robert, no problem...
Here with more pics.

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Maker, RZM N�:186, Paul Herden - Leipzig C1.
(Subdivision Group : A2 - private hat maker)

If somebody could find the former owner....NSDAP Number : 97428.... thanks a lot.

RZM tag.

Top Trikot...
(exactly the same fabrication as my early "Orts").

But more opinions are welcome,
This cap seems 100% OK to me but I'm open to all critical and objective thought.

Thank you.

Close up of the sweatband.

Chinstrap buttons are RZM marked.

"Deutsche Industrie" logo and head size marking (56)...

Pascal, don't worry about this visor cap.

Maker, RZM N�:186, Paul Herden - Leipzig C1.
(Subdivision Group : A2 - private hat maker)

If somebody could find the former owner....NSDAP Number : 97428.... thanks a lot.
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Hi,
nobody own a "SS Altersliste" to know who he could be?

Thank's

Hi Pascal,

I just looked into my DAL from 1 July 1935. The Party number 97428 belonged to SS-Standartenfuhrer Karl Herwig. He was the fuhrer of 53 Standarte, which was formed in Wesselburen and had the popular name "Dithmarschen". After November, 1937 it was Headquartered in Heide. Herwig's SS Nr is 5447 and he eventually became an SS-Oberfurhrer.

Nice cap with a great history!

PS - here is some extra info from the Axis History site...

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=79372&highlight=karl+herwig

Cheers,

Thank you very much Darryl !

after had read again the tag....Is this "Mitgliedsnummer des Tr�gers" the SS member or NSDAP member number ?

Thanks.

Hi Pascal,

That is difficult to say for sure. Some used the NSDAP number and others, the SS number. I didn't find the number 97428 in the SS column of the 1935 DAL and since the cap is quite early I would have expected it to be there.

Cheers,

The visor fits from the early dates when he was an SS officer.

A last question, could it be possible that the wire being used to sew the white edgings together and to fix the RZM tag are glowing ?

It's not the same type of glowing as a modern white wire but more than the edgings.
Contrary to the edging which glow absolutely not !

Did they already used "whiter" for their wire.

Thank you.

Hi Pascal don't confuse reflection for "glowing " when using a UV light. Bullion and some white cotton will reflect light. There is a noticeable difference when synthetic white material glows. It almost looks as if a light is shining. The only thing that will lessen this glowing effect is age, tarnish and dirt and grime. It will not eliminate it only reduce it. A cap this early should not have any synthetic threads or materials. They simply did not exist for this manufacturing application. cheers, Ryan It is possible that it is a postwar repair.

Pascal,
I can see why the discovery of chemically brightened thread would give you cause for concern. I must say that from your pictures everything about the cap looks rather good. Can you take a photograph of the elements that appear to glow? The ultraviolet light you use should give enough light for an exposure if you can keep the camera steady enough. The resultant photograph might go a long way in helping an opinion.
I have seen some really extraordinary reproduction hats that were let down by the inclusion of thread with synthetic whitening. One SS cap I owned for many years looked absolutely correct until the black light came along and revealed that the thread used to attach the apparently period celluloid diamond in place glowed.
Don't panic just yet, as Ryan says, sometimes thread can reflect the light and appear to be brighter.
Optical brighteners were invented prior to the second world war but due to cost they do not appear to have been utilised until the fifties. Coloured dyes used them and certain waffenfarbe will glow, check out some Fire Police pipings, but most collectors I know have found through extensive testing that the genuine white thread found on articles in their collections does not glow.
Regards,
Derek
PS: Make sure you blacklight the interior, the muslin and any other white threads found deep in the interior, they are often a giveaway.

Hi Ryan, Derek,
here with a "blacklight" pic...

The thread on the left is a modern one to compare.

Thank you.

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Sorry, blurry, but difficult to obtain a sharp pic with an autofocus camera in the dark...