UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons German Sword & Miniatures Forum SS Officer's Sword Query

For Dale, Grumpy, Fred and others: How many of you own or have owned an SS OFFICERS DEGEN, that has a pressed on lower chape on the scabbard, and how many of you have owned the screwed on lower fitting on the scabbard ? We're only talking SS Officers versions

Looking at two that I could get out of the safe easy, one had screws (Krebs small sheild) and the other early unmarked had none. I've heard that true SS officers don't have screws but, I think thats BS.

My SS officer sword is the early unmarked version. It has the pressed on lower fitting.

Other tha 3 Dachau's with I'm not counting, 5 early ones that I own or have owned, all had pressed fittings.

I have two SS honor degens one with a pressed on drag and the other with a screwed on drag.
Jim

Mine has a pressed on drag. It's early unmarked nickel-silver.

My early unmarked one has the pressed on drag which I think is normal for these pieces-but some may not have this feature and many of the later ones don't have that feature. I think it is a "good" thing but not a requirement for authenticity.

All Krebs from me (early lobster) are pressed in fitted, a friends collection over in Germany has also just pressed in fitted scabbards in his collection.

Pressed fitting.

JR,

All of my SS Officer's swords have the 'pressed' on lower scabbard fitting.

However, I concur with Houston that I don't feel that it is an absolute point of authenticity nor an absolute for being the only way of an original issue.

I would only imagine on the late of the day on a Friday afternoon and the sword factory worker was cleaning up his work table and had a sword to go and didn't have any more of the prescribed scabbards designated for the SS officers, he would reach over and take a scabbard from the police officers stock. Of course, this is only hypothetical and an imagination on my part, but the usual is the pressed on lower fitting. As such, I wouldn't rule against a screwed on fitting.

Just my thoughts with no documented information.

John

Very good information Gentlemen ! Thank you !

I personally suspect but can't prove that scabbard swapping between Police and SS degens has taken place over the years. We certainly know this occurred with SS and NSKK dagger scabbards to get one with better paint.
It's even easier with sword scabbards since the only fit issue is length excluding the Dachau examples.
I also wonder who determined that the original issue scabbard for this sword has the pressed on drag only?
I actually have three drag attachment variations on the SS/Police swords in my collection. There is the pressed on, The screwed on with screw heads above the surface like political dagger screws and screwed on with flush or slightly recessed screws. Anyone know why there are three variations?
Jim

There is one very good indicator that you do have the proper scabbard that goes with your sword that I use often. It is not %100 but it is like I said a good indicator. When you lay the blade on top of the scabbard and touch the lip of the upper fitting to the area of the "D" guard where it would sit, the blade should be within an inch of the end of the scabbard. Take this measurement metal to metal by passing the width of the washer.

I have a late model non-Dachau SS officer sword with a screw on drag. The scabbard I bought for my SS officer 'Candidate' sword has a slip on drag but had the screw holes. So I drilled and tapped the hole and installed screws. Didn't like the open holes without the screws. Looked to me like someone forgot to assemble the thing properly.
My police officer sword is a Krebs with a slip on drag.

Hi JR and Everyone!
I am not sure about the Dachau swords but all other true SS swords have a pressed on lower fitting. Police swords have screws retaining the lower fitting.
Best Wishes,
Bob

As I stated, I have a police sword made by Krebs with a pressed on drag. I also believe that the pressed on fittings are actually soldered or braised on. Having worked on a number of police and SS swords it appears to be accombination of period of manufacture and maker. I agree with Houston that the manner of drag attachment could not be used in determining authenticity.

"all other true SS swords have pressed on lower fittings" Bob, how can you make such a statement about all ss swords? Did you mean just the swords you own?

We've all heard the statement made by Bob above. Does anyone have any documentation to support it?
Jim

Yes, I think there must be someplace in the SS archives an organizational edict issued by Himmler himself that sez that "all them swords gots to have pressed on fittings and all thems that got screws are forbidden to be worn cause thems are postwar. H. Himmler".

Hi Guys!
I do not have any sort of documentation to support my statement. However, I have owned many over the last 25+ years and all early ones with the stepped fitting have the pressed lower fitting. I am unsure of mid period swords although I think they have the pressed fitting also.
I will check with Joe P when I speak with him in a day or two. Joe is just as knowledgeable as Wittmann if not more so.
I will be back shortly!
Best Wishes,
Bob

My very early "Krebs" has a pressed-on fitting. Another I own has a screwed-on fitting, using headless "luftwaffe" scabbard-type screws. Interestingly, I have an "Alcoso" police sword with runes pommel cap on which the drag is attached by the same type screws. This "no-maker" SS sword also has a mixture of nickel-silver and plated hilt fittings (the ferrule and back plate covering the wire connections are plated). The upper step fitting and pommel cap screw in (not on) and the untouched tang cap is firmly in place. No evidence it has ever been apart. I have no doubt the scabbard is original to the sword. I believe this sword is likely from the later "early period" when nickel-silver materials were being phased out for sword use. I think it likely most, if not all, true early swords have a "press-on" lower scabbard fitting, but I would not agree that any SS officer's sword with a "screw-on" fitting is not correct. There are variations of these things. The early "Krebs" (above) does not have the runes button pinned through the tang. The upper step fitting is built in and the pommel cap screws in. It has no cap on the tang, but two screws which hold it all together. The handguard is the "square" type. The scabbard fittings, including the screws, are nickel-silver. As noted above, it does have a "pressed-on" lower scabbard fitting. The original-to-the-sword portepee is the shorter type, with a 1935 cloth tag on it. This sword would undoubtedly be "dissed" by some, but it as real as can be, vet purchased and attributable to an SS-Brigadefuhrer, whose initials appear on the pommel cap. It has never been cleaned. It does not conform to any "check list" of what's "real" and what's not. It is real, period. I hope this thread does not degenerate into another "serrated tail-smooth tail" free-for-all.

Hi!
Sorry for the delay but I do have some answers. I spoke with 2 �old timers� who seriously know their blades. Both said the majority of SS Officer swords do have the pressed or more likely soldered lower fitting. A minority can be found with screws on the lower fitting. Either way is acceptable although the �pressed� lower fitting is more common. I personally feel better with it although that is only a personal preference.
Best Wishes,
Bob

Very good contributions to this topic. Thank you to all. JR

i have a chance to buy this sword, but before i do , i would like your advice on it, it has no rzm markings on it other the the ss markings on the scabbard where ther sword would go into it, and the handle end does not have the ss runes on it, ive read that only NCO and Officer swords would have that, enlisted ones did not.

the sword know seems correct also.

thank you
Brian

i mean sword KNOT, not sword know. sorry about that .

Brian

Has anybody ever seen one SS Officer degen with an original anodized scabbard? From my experience I say no to it.

My officer's scabbard is painted whilst my nco is anodised, I'm not an expert but I have certainly seen officer scabbards which were anodised and looked to be original to the sword.

Jonathan

usarmysoldier: The sword shown in your picture is an SS officer sword and looks good to me. Not all makers of SS swords applied the runic symbol to the bottom of the D-guard.

Robert H: I have seen a small number of SS and police swords with anodized scabbards. I can't remember if they were attributable to a specific maker, but they do exist. The WKC catalog for 1938 offered an anodized scabbard (bruenierte Scheide) at extra cost.

I don't recall having seen or read about "anodized" scabbards on SS or police swords, BUT, I would not be surprised that authentic examples exist. There are early TR sabers with the blued finish. What I would guess is the sword scabbards, like the SS dagger scabbards and others, went from the chemical finish to the painted one fairly early on. It would be more likely to find a blued scabbard on an SS sword than a police sword, since the police swords came quite a bit later. It makes sense that very early SS sword scabbards, in some cases, may have authentic "anodized" finishes. The scabbard would have to be examined to determine whether the finish is original or whether it was applied later.

I don't think that the real given early SS Ehrendegen got sometimes an anodized scabbard. All real ones I know about with or without the virgin grip got a painted scabbard. A painted or anodized mixture doesn't fit well in the early years for Krebs lobsters (early style) nor unmarked early Degen.

The 2 I currently have ( one early and one mid period) both have the press on/soldered lower scabbard fitting.

I've had 10 in the last 3 years. All had press on bottom fittings, all had painted scabbards. JR

JR - Pressed and painted, I'll check my early Sr. OC sword but I think its finished the same way.

Rick

JR, was any of the 10 Degen with a SS number ?

Just 1, Robert.

very interesting JR, thanks for the info.

Early SS Off.,unmarked blade,pressed on lower scabbard fitting.

... or with the early Krebs Lobster mark. All SS Degen till now I have seen given from a Junkerschule got an unmarked blade and the grip (as we call it in Germany) was a vergin one (with the protective cap). Still not much written about it, but from my own researches in Germany I see there differences.

Mine is a Krebs with the early lobster mark and has a screwed on scabbard fitting. I acquired mine from a collector who got it directly from a vet over 30 years ago. BTW: I was standing with one of the major dealers who bought an SS honor degen from a walkin with a screwed on lower scabbard fitting at the SOS a few years ago.
IMO: The appropriate scabbard would probably have the pressed on fitting. However; It's certainly possible some mixups were made during assembly and scabbards were also replaced over time due to damage. I personally think the sword is a lot more important than the scabbard anyway.
Jim