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Hi Oleg, dont get discouraged,, the economy is pretty rotten and is putting alot of peoples backs up against a wall forcing them to sell their collections. I dont believe alot of people will forget WW2 or the Third Reich era. Amazingly there are quite a few young people out here that read history. Those who read it will not forget. In all countries revolutions and civil wars are not forgotten after a few centuries. Here in the US The Revolutionary War is very collectible as is the Civil War in 1865. Reenactors and historians ( we as collectors) keep these hobbies alive. "Dont Throw in the towel" or (dont give up) because of the economical climate. Just because it is cloudy outside doesnt mean its going to rain!! Hang on to your investments because its your future. No one forgot Picasso or Monet and collectors are still buying these paintings at very high prices. Doug said it best ...
Originally Posted By: Doug
.hold on longer to maximize your profit, or be forced to go all in with a below market price

You would be amazed at what people collect that is a few hundred years old and what we consider rubbish. I parted with 3 SAs and one of them was a Bulldog,, I kick myself to this day, letting those go. Stay the course if you choose and your patience will pay off. Best to you Oleg,, Larry


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I don't know if its actual interest by some East Europeans or that they have so much disposable income that they buy what's 'hot' at the moment.. What is happening is their economy now sucks like everyone else's and those with the super money have a bunch of these cool pieces already and it's time to move to something else.. It has cooled off there in the last year or 2 considering the last 6 or 7..

Sure we'd all love to have some US civil war stuff, or Napoleonic era, Vikings etc. but there is very little out there. There are literally TONS of 3rd Reich out there and tons yet to be found,,,there will always be interest,,the cool looking regalia, the dark/horrid result of the cult of personality.
As long as there is the collecting hobby collectors will be interested in WWII 'stuff'.

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I am still collecting, I just collect fire arms now. For the same price, one can buy much greater value comparing to the daggers of course. We are lucky to live in US, where one still can fairly easily obtain a permit to buy WWII guns, and rifles. Hopefully, it will continue to be so. As for Eastern European buyers, there are a lot more collectors there than here. We, generation of 70s or 60s, when we were kids were amazed by WWII staff and we all played "Germans" against "Russians" war games. Now, these people are holding key position there and have a lot a lot of cash. An average person cannot afford the good staff, but a person with money, does not care how much it cost. I was there on many occasions in resent history, and it is crazy how much money some people have to spend. They spend more than those rich Arabs in oil rich Middle Eastern Countries, and they "Russians" are interested in WWII staff, unlike Chinese or Middle Easterns. I think due to internet and due to easy shipping to Eastern Europe, the prices for the daggers were greately overinflated. It was a bubble of some sort. Now they are cooled down, but one can still get a good deal overseas of course.

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Like Oleg, I have backed off from my dagger buying and switched to firearms. I can purchase a WW2 correctable handgun for usually less than a dagger and find them easier to sell if needed..Although daggers have come down some in price lately.


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A collection went to auction in Canada this Saturday,August 7th..the collection was 45 years old and was valued at between $60-80k..

The whole collection was sold to two buyers

Price: $12,500.00 Canadian

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Means nothing. Very often the auction houses have trouble collecting and the sellers have to wait long long time getting their money. I am speaking of my experiences. In addition, auction fees, sometimes very high.

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Hi Oleg1, all,

Originally Posted By: Oleg1
...I am speaking of my experiences. In addition, auction fees, sometimes very high.


Now THAT I DO know from experience too ... Auctioneers usually take about 1 third of the winning bid? AND very often also a sorta flat-fee'ish amount for the 1st amount (this could be 500, or 1000, in whatever currency you have), so, you ALWAYS end up with WAY less then you think.

Anyway, I think, 2 things are addressed? François is saying something different, like, how new people are treated, but ofcourse that depends on how the new people act too? I don't know, we new'ish folk just have to find out what you experienced people know already? And, I do understand that some1 has to sorta "earn" to be given info when asked. This is more so with SS stuff I think. Some stuff has different kind of collectors.

And you refer to the money/value of things? Im not really 1 to speak, maybe, but, I think, I, "we" I should say, see this as something fun, great to do, interesting? So, looking at it from that point of view, its more like, when you go skating, or running (I truly love both SO FRIGGIN' much!) then, you dont mind to invest a whopping amount in good shoes, 'cause, hell, yer feet, they HURT if you wear those cheapo sneakies. And, wearing those supersale skates? Ya lost that front wheel right there purrdy good missy, sure must've hurt cracking that knee on the asphalt there, goodluck with that! ... So, you dont go for a nickle+dime on that stuff. When these shoes/skates are worn, you throw them away. No money left in it. Or that übercool new *place-favorite-hobby-item-here*! Or that flashy new car? Or supercomputer? They don't return the money you put in it. So, its more like money spent to enjoy, not to keep value, or make profit? I think, if you get what you paid originally, well, you had a GREAT time enjoying the items for free! Now THERES coolness But I do understand that MANY people see it differently, and theres a HUGE business in this stuff going on? Anyway, just my .02 ...

Sincerely,
Karin-Renate


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Originally Posted By: Oleg
This hobby will die out in a short period of time

and about 10years ago there were some that said this hobby would die out.....Interesting as of today,,"10 years later",, that dying phrase is till being said!,, and 80 years after the war!
The world was also suppposed to come to an end ,,, MANY TIMES..but those phrases and people came and went. Everyone here on this forum is entitled to their opinion, which is a great contribution to this hobby. Yours included!! One thing I have not seen here,,,is any "arm twisting" into anyone elses personal doctrine or thought. That junk died in 1945.
Originally Posted By: myself
Hang on to your investments because its your future.


but also you have a choice because "you" have to do what you think is best for "yourself",, and others here will do the same.
Best Regards Larry


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Just a general impression here:
The "collecting" market today is soft in just about any area you care to look at except the true upper tiers. The market for high end collectible autos or firearms,for example, as well as just about anything else at that end of the spectrum remains strong. Just tune into ,for example, one of the Mecum auctions on TV.
When people are worried about their jobs and all the attendent things that go along with a bad economy collecting interests tend to get put on the back burner. If and when the economy improves I suspect interest in collectibles will ramp up again.
Jim

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Oleg..selling off your items for a fraction of their value because the market is soft means nothing?

I beg to differ. That was bid total before the obligatory sales tax, with no commission at the auction.There were the usual lot there, dealers, pickers etc..no one had the spare cash to invest and the lot actually went to 2 collectors..imagine that.

In better times, that lot ( including SS items) would have generated big money. I know of two large collections at the moment that are being broken up, and by my account, that makes 12 this year alone.

The market's changing.

As collectors, we should be happy..as investors, some may be disappointed..

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Its been over 4 years since this post and since I've been on this forum. I would like members input on this topic.

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I think its fruitless to try to predict the future, and I also think that anyone collecting solely for investment purposes shouldn't be in this field of collecting.
I think TR merchandise will always be collectible due to its notoriety and historical value, but also due to its quality and sheer variation when compared to other countries of the same era.
On the one had, the farther away events get in time the less they will be on peoples minds. On the other hand, the older artifacts become the more desirable they are to many, so time will tell which dynamic will win the the end.
1 thing is certain - If average SS daggers go down to the $250-$500 range there will be a drastic drop in counterfeits ... If they go up to the $7-$10k range there will be an increase.


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I don't get it why we have to pay, let's say, $10K for a dagger... I appreciate the history, quality, etc but it blows my mind how ridiculously high prices can be with certain dealers.

I agree with Doug... If you drop the prices for SS daggers there will be a drastic drop of counterfeits... raise the price and you'll open a new world/market for scammers and crooks!


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Gents,
Legitimate dealers who are in the business of making money charge what the market will bear. It is the fundamental basis of the free market capitalist system, period. Many of these dealers have been in business for decades so someone is buying their items. They also have to pay what suppliers, such as yourselves, want to get for their items. They do not make these. They are not a manufacturer of these artifacts. There is a finite number available. Would you sell your SS dagger for $400 so the dealers can sell them for $500? Of course not. Supply and demand are one of the fundamentals of our capitalist system. If you want price control, turn to North Korea. Don't forget what you learned in High School Economics class.


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Strato,

Right on.

John


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Didn't read the whole thread, did someone ask for price controls ?
Everyone knows about supply and demand well enough, everyone knows dealers did not make these items, am not quite seeing the purpose of tangents here.
This thread I thought was about whether or not younger collectors can/will fill the void left by older collectors and what effect this transition will have on future market prices of TR items.


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I agree TR merchandise will always be collectible ..

2 things though,,,less and less newbies coming in to the hobby. And, those that are interested can't really afford to purchase what they really want anyway..

It's been going on a slow death the last few years. Yeah sure there are going to be a few dealers that will come in here [maybe?] and say how the last few shows have been their best . blah blah blah ********..

I'm on Long Island [North East U.S.] New York I can report in my area..
The local shows [those that are left!!] here in NY, NJ, Conn. and slow and going down period..
The big shows , SOS, MAX also [no matter what anyone else says] have been going down the last few years.
Look at what we're seeing with the MAX / SOS merger,,,this happened because things are going great!!

Finite amount of items out there,,the bad [now] global economy, less newbies, low interest, inflated prices on 'hot' areas of collecting, thieving dealers, near perfect copies,..

Face it guys,, its done,,and its not coming back ,,,at least not anytime soon , read- our lifetimes...
It's not just us,,its the BaseBall [sports collectable] cards, the Barbies, coins, toys in general, motorcycles, books / comics - ALL slow going and heading towards at best stagnation..

I'm not sad, nor distressed etc. at all. Been collecting since the mid 1970s. Had some great pieces. Seen better than museum pieces.. Had some very good times/experiences, and really best of all met some great people. Got friends all over the world. Hobby wise, its been good to me, I'm fine whatever way it goes....

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Gaspare, are you saying that I should liquidate my Barbie collection ??
I dunno man, I might part with an SS dagger or 2 but not my Barbies !

But seriously [and I wasn't serious, really !], all "collectible" markets took a hit from which they'll not likely recover anytime soon. 1 thing remains true across the board whether its SS daggers, Barbies or Superman comics - Rare & top condition items hold and increase their value, common and bad conditioned items are stagnant and declining. If anything, how these items fare is probably the best measuring stick of all to what the future portends - For the interest at the top tends to trickle down to the bottom.


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Oh man I got some funny Barbie storys!
anyway...

Yes you are right! Trickle down,,and that's when you know the hobby is in big trouble,, decline and/ or stagnation points

Look at what some were paying a few years ago for simple Russian Front medal,,and a GAB!!
Because of production amounts of certain makers, 'rare' variations, materials. A monograph comes out, its own forum etc.

Collectors were paying 3 times over what they should have been paying! Lately I see them on another forum site trying to liquidate their collections. In reality, A GAB is a GAB is a GAB,,,ok, yes there is a solid back and a hollow back , different makers but nothing that justifies paying triple what a 'standard' example in similar conditions would cost..

Some years ago this happened with ribbon bars, Soldbuchs, SS buckles [they held though], SS eagles, cap devices, EKIIs, wound badges, cufftitles, Army/SA daggers, Honor Rings,,everything gets its turn being 'hot' and those buying at the time over pay big time....After a while some end up with a gigantic collection of common run of the mill pieces not worth anywhere near of what they paid just a couple years ago.

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I don't collect in order to make money when I sell. I collect to get 'all' of something, like etched bayonets or Eickhorn maker mark variations.

Like many of us, I used to and still do collect all kinds of things... stamps, books, music.

I have a collection of over 20,000 music CDs and do not moan about how little they are worth today vs how much I actually paid for them. I do enjoy listening to them though, which is really why I got them in the first place.

Same thing with my collection(s). I am unloading some of my high end items gradually while I still can and hope that my kids will be able to realize some value from the rest of my collection when I go to the great hobby store in te sky. For my kids, this will be gravy even if they realize 10 cents to every dollar that I spent.

I collect for the sake of collecting. The thrill is in the chase, not in owning and holding after. So, enjoy while you can and let others worry about net realizable value.

John


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John,
You have summarized eloquently the essence of what collecting is all about IMO. I too place intrinsic value on the treasure hunt, pride of display and ownership. The value we derive from the friendships we develop in this pursuit is priceless. If my estate sells my collection for 20 cents on the dollar I will have more than broken even.
Rick


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Rick:

You guys are so right about the people in this hobby, mostly great to know and a handful that it pays to avoid.

I go to the shows, not because of the great items to see and find there, but to hang out with the amazing people who are in this hobby.

John


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Hi John, yer from YYC! I'm not that far from you. In which part of the city are you?


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The south end.

John


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John, you are so spot on. It is the great relationships I have developed that keeps me in the hobby and also learning. No I don't think the hobby is dying, it is just maturing and changing. Commerce in general is rapidly changing. Most younger folks prefer to buy on the web. Heck, they rarely talk with one another face to face any more. Yes, I'm afraid the Internet has changed forever the way we learn, conduct business and communicate. Thus, the hobby will evolve along with it. Sadly however, people will miss out on the face to face communication and relationships we hold dear by not going to shows. Having said that I have met many new and interesting people as a consequence of the Internet. It has also opened the world to collectors. It is truly a global endeavor now. The hobby is not dying but shows are. This is why us older folks perceive the hobby as dying. Just my opinion.
Rick

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Hi all, I am in fact one who is new to the hobby. I like to say that it was because I found an ss honor ring by chance and luck, but now I think maybe the ring found me...at first, I thought- maybe I should ditch it, ASAP, it may have bad juju, you know? But then I started reading and researching, and I became obsessed... I am young-ish, 41, I have a wife and two beautiful kids, ages 4 and 2. I don't have the disposable income that many folks have who are older than me, so I'm not going to be making any major purchases. In fact, I'm a history teacher...and I love history. I can sit down with a book or a person who has been there, done that and lose sense of time...I'm not young like my brother in law (29) who was into militaria until he found a girlfriend, and I'm not interested in shirking my mortgage or leveraging my kids college educations on an SS dagger. I think everything happens for a reason, and from my perspective, there must be a reason I'm here...you all make very salient points about the changing of the guard, the economy, the state of mind of people of many different generations...I can't argue with any of these points, you all are correct...but here's my experience...many guys my age do like to find an escape, activity, or hobby and that's what that is to me. I'm not interested in profit or neo nazi-ism, I'm interested in the person who lived and left an amazing artifact about what life meant to him and his nation, forget about borders and battle lines...in addition, I was lucky enough to meet some amazing ppl at my first max show, and not to diminish it, but that experience and the friends I'm making are worth more to me than a ring.

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Four years! Time goes by so quickly!

Since that last post, I have seen many, many collectors get out the game. Some of them passed away and others simply dumped their items while retaining a passing interest in the hobby.

I have not seen any real uptick in the number of young collectors and the show goers just keep getting older...including me!

I started collecting in 1976 and at that time, you could pick up a grab bag full of goodies for a relatively small amount of money. I can remember getting a few badges (inf assault, wound badge, iron cross) for about $25.00..helmets could be had for $25-30 dollars (a fortune!)

Flags could be had for next to nothing. SA daggers were inexpensive as well. German militaria was the bad cousin at gun shows, and only those really interested asked for these relics. There has always been a hard core, dedicated group of collectors for these items.

The graying of this hobby is well under way. I will not say that this will be the death knell of the hobby, but all such hobbies need new blood and I just don't see the younger crowd interested enough to even maintain replacement level.

Again, go to the shows...see the crowds and notice the lack of young faces. The militaria show is dying a slow, demographic related death. The younger collector (the few that there are) are not willing, nor capable on the whole, of paying the prices for relatively common items.

If you were a young collector with student loans etc, could you justify spending $1k on a relatively common SA dagger for eg.?

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I know I have bias because I do this for a living but a few things to consider:
1- The Russians have exited. The Rubel is down 20%+ vs the US$. There are a huge # of Russian collectors so demand has been affected. There is demand being pent up and when the geopolitical thing settles down they will be back with a vengeance.
2-The US$ is also up significantly against all other major currencies, AU$, CAN$. EURO. This too has delayed purchases.
3- Lets face it, show attendance is down, not just in militaria but coins, stamps. Bennie babies etc. The hobby is now on-line that's where the action is. Major shows are now mostly dealer swaps.
4- No new young collectors, well you are right most young people do not have the $ to get into this. IMHO as people age history becomes more important to them and that draws people in... as well as later in life they start to have some disposable funds to even consider such a purchase.

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Originally Posted By: Bernie Brule
Prices are obviously too high.

Most dealers will tell you that something is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. That market forces dictate value. Bull crap.


If someone with deep pockets is willing to pay $400 for an iron cross, that doesn't mean it's actually worth $400. People forget that there were millions of these made made. Yes some are more rare than others but most are plentiful.

Unlike 30-40 years ago when SA daggers were $50, someone today with a wife, kids, a mortgage and car payments can't afford to pay $1k+ for an SA dagger or any other dagger.

TR dagger collecting is a now a rich man's hobby. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out why there are practically no new young collectors coming into the hobby. And why many seasoned collectors are jumping ship.

It's simple mathematics.


Bernie's post is the best,imo.It's simply too expensive.
When i see the prices of an SA dagger or ss, or Luftwaffen honor goblet etc. crazy
Gerd

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In my opinion, any rational person willing to pay $400 for an iron cross must intrinsically feel it is worth it. Is it above average market? Today, yes likely. But if a dealer finds someone willing to pay that price is the dealer wrong in pricing it as such? If you extrapolated Bernies argument, then gold would have less value than it does as it is only a soft shiny metal, diamonds are nothing but a hard rock and all of these minerals are in great supply. What makes these valuable? Conspiracy theorists would argue cartels, but I further digress. Point is that everything is in fact only worth what someone is willing to pay for it in an unregulated environment, like it or not. Therefore, eventually the dealer will lower prices if he cannot find a buyer or increase them if he has high demand. I think this is hard to argue against and is the primary basis for the largest economy (USA) on this planet...oh wait, China who adopted the capitalist system and has limited regulations is now first..sorry.

Yes militaria collecting is expensive, but is all relative to ones Discretionary Income. Lets be honest here. There is a vast range of Militaria at different price levels that is available and makes it possible for almost all to participate. I think people gripe about dealer prices because they want to collect rarer pieces at a price they can afford given their budget. Who doesn't ? I understand this completely. I do as well. But to demonize dealers is baloney IMO. The beauty of a capitalist system says you do not have to pay $400 for an EK if you don't think it is worth it. You can go elsewhere. Perhaps, your desires outstrips your income. You need to be realistic. Tough talk I realize but I can't afford a Ferrari but I sure would like one. Maybe the dealer is charging too much?

Now after that diatribe; relative to new comers to the hobby, yes the maturing of this hobby has caused most collectibles to rise in value relative to 20 years ago and also the rise in extremely good quality fakes which is also developing its own market. This rise coupled with stagnancy in our purchasing power of the average worker in the US due to globalization has made it more difficult for younger folks to jump into the hobby. Most newcomers I meet are in their late 30s' to early 40's. I have been collecting for 17 years. I didn't start seriously collecting until I was 39 years old. Could not afford what I wanted to collect. I don't know that this has changed all that much. So our job is to introduce and educate new comers to affordable options relative to their budget by personally going out of our way to help them. The worst thing a newbie can do is buy something that really stretches their budget and then only to learn that there is a problem with it. This turns this person off who relates their experience to others compounding a negative experience. Education is what separates long time collectors from drive buy purchasers. My recommendation to any new comer is to first invest in reference material and adopt an experienced collector in the area they want to collect. I for one would gladly post my name as a Mentor for anyone interested in collecting Imperial Navy edged weapons. I would be glad to spend whatever time is necessary to help others. How can this Forum further promote reaching out to less experienced collectors and pairing them with experienced collectors?
Best, Rick

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This is what I like about this forum...we are here to help each other. Ok, prices are high for lots of things (and I wish some things were cheaper...lol!) however there's always some good advice given here to the (new) collectors.

I think that a person must make out for himself what he can or can't afford. Don't spend your "family" money on militaria is one of my advices to the new collectors. Family comes first!

If you have that little extra then go ahead and buy your item. But please make sure you have the money in your pocket and don't go into debt for a dagger, helmet, or other militaria. It's not worth it!

I wouldn't say that collecting TR daggers is a rich man's hobby... the collector just needs to be aware of what he can or can't afford (use common sense).


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I have found that Allach porcelain, wisely purchased from knowledgeable dealers is a very sound investment, both in personal satisfaction and gain on purchase price. On a bad day, you can always get what you paid for it which is hard to say for a couple of named German General officers uniforms I have had for 10 years. Then again, they display with a great degree of historical significance. Now, if I could only find a home for the 175 SA/SS daggers I have squirreled away over the years. I do enjoy having a hoard of them though! Each one, for me, represented a good chase which outweighed the catch more often than not. (Well, not ALL of them)!

Mark

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Hi Mark,

how many pieces of Allach do you still have in your collection?

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Hi guys, thanks for some good advice, I feel that's been my main consumable right now. Rick, if I head in the direction of the imperial navy, I am going to look you up! Actually my only 2 major purchases were a COA for the honor ring (that I lucked into) and a reference book. Other than that, like I said for now, it's a side hobby for me that really only costs me a little bit of reading time, and I'm grateful to be meeting some great folks like you all.

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Erich, I have about 30 pieces of Allach, mostly birds, deer, (Bugeling Elk, Roaring Stag, Standing Roebuck, etc), the elephant's, Maiden after bath and a lot of Julefest plates, both white and SS Christmas painted ones and 3-4 mounted riders. It is beautiful to look at. I also have a mint Der Fechter I got some years back from Dennis Porell. Most of my Allach came from Dennis over the years. I have much more, but that is a quick view. I would still buy nice Allach, but it is difficult to find, still.

Mark

Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 682
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Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 682
Thx for showing me those beauties yesterday John Z! Always good to meet a fellow collector!

Gruss,

Gerry aka Panzerfaust


Die Treue ist das Mark der Ehre!
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,365
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,365
Nice Mark, I have seen photos years ago of your most impressive collection.

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,480
L
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L
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,480
I just looked back at my comment on page one. I couldn't remember bu felt sure I would have chimed in. I have not changed that opinion and it is about where I would have expected.
The usual suspects over pricing common stuff. Some well known names gone and others liquidating, (hoping nobody has noticed and it doesn't cause a collapse).

Forum sales are dying and collector to collector values are round about 50% of dealer humped up figures. Most lurking in the forum sales are bottom feeders looking to take advantage of the desperate. At today's prices I figure my collection to be valued at around half what it cost me to assemble. I am not going to complain about that because any hobby will cost you money and I enjoyed my time. I did not expect to make anything much but I did hope it would hold it's value better than it has. It has been almost a year since I bought anything and I think I have probably quit.


War is when your government tells you who the enemy is.
Revolution is when you figure it out for yourself.
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,791
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,791
Hi Guys I just add my 2 cents from point of view from eastern Europe.Im bored ,a few years ago collecting was finding another artifacts and enjoying with a few friends.Now it is only value ,prices from one side is very high but nobody wants to pay.My few friends or people who I know when I asked about confirmation of originality called me maker of repros.In many people I see obsessive needs to prove thats a repro.Flood of copies in very good quality.There are no community to talk about beauty of artifacts ,daggers etc. The interviews comes to the one end money and in what price I can sell it. I didnt buy any new dagger to my collection and Im disaponted .This place looks like the last normal stand .Ted

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,480
L
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L
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,480
Yes, bored Ted, that too!
Enthusiasm is an infectious emotion and there is no longer enough of it. You are right, it all seems to be about the money now and not the item.
How things can change in just a decade. Too many of the old guard who were so passionate have now gone.


War is when your government tells you who the enemy is.
Revolution is when you figure it out for yourself.
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