UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons European Edged Weapons Please help ID dagger

Lwov,

Thanks for the update on Zlatoust trademarks. It�s quite a progression from the early days, when German armorers from Solingen were encouraged to practice their craft there. With the early French style engraved blade inscriptions, to the later stamped types, and now it seems etching?.

As for the dagger if �viking-rune� wants to make the effort, like you, I�m all for a good close look. Especially as regards the type of plastic used for the grip, and how the blade was made. Also of interest I think is the font, and type of trademark for a pre or very early 1917 Hackman blade

After looking into it some more, the dagger is actually supposed to be an Aviator�s (and some others) Dagger of 1914. Of course this dagger does not look like known period daggers, omitting some features. With the argument being made that different makers could make the dagger any way that they pleased, including variations of the Tsar�s monogram. With the lack of one of the features IMO, being potentially more troubling than some of the lack of attention to detail.

Since it was a (relatively) small group of potential private purchasers. In the time span from the chaos of WW I, to the abdication of the Tzar, that brings up some other issues. But I will leave it at that for the moment in anticipation of a possible closer look at the dagger in question.

Fred

Frogprince, I took pictures of the dagger taken apart. I just dont know how to size the jpegs to put them on the forum. Jim W posted the pictures for me. I dont know if the dagger is authentic ,a parts dagger or a fake as this is not my area of collecting. Thanks

viking-rune,

I can help in that area, and you should have a PM in your in-box. Having a full size image to work with really helps in getting a good look at how things are put together.

Thank You!!

Fred

Im tyring a resizing program.

more

pic 2

pic 3

pic 4

pic 5

viking-rune,

I really would like to thank you for the extra effort it took in putting these images together so we could get a better look at the dagger. Some guys will get scared and run away, and it�s a pleasure to see someone with the courage to see it through - for good or bad.

This is what I seem to be seeing. With the Caveat that I�ve been fooled before with preliminary images. And had to do a 180 degree turn in my opinion with later ones. So if you want to re-shoot any of these please be my guest, and I will try and indicate areas where I have a greater interest.

First image: It looks like the mouthpiece has two cuts for a blade/scabbard lock. Having sometimes seen especially with some later examples, cuts on both sides. So they could be assembled by factory workers either way. Or possibly wearers like with Soviet daggers, that have button locks versus a friction fit.

Second image: This has been the most interesting one so far. While I would need to see some side and other shots of the tang to be sure. It�s looking like one cut via the �blanking� process. With some �stock removal� thrown in to finish it up before threading. Also seen are the fairly extensive brass shims to keep the blade from wobbling.

Third image: The shims.

Forth image: The pommel cap that has generated so much discussion. It looks to me like a relatively light gauge brass sheet metal. With pock marks from brazing, that has been very noticeably deformed. From when somebody tried to force fit the pommel cap to the grip??

Fifth image: The lower grip collar, that but for the gaps seen, could have been the object of the force fitting. Unfortunately not enough of the grip itself is seen in the image(s) so just what that is remains open to speculation. If when you look at it �in hand�, and see that I missed something, or something that I got wrong please let me know.

I would like to have given a better �report card�. But as most know, I try to call them as I see them. And this is what I seem to be seeing in the images.

With my Best Regards,

Fred

Thanks Fred, like I said this is not my area of collecting and wanted an honest opinion of the dagger.I wouldnt want it any other way than what your honest thoughts are on the dagger. I want to thank you all the others for their help and information. This is a great forum and a wealth of information for the collector. I just got this dagger in the deal with the 3- WW2 German daggers which I do collect. Thank you Dail

Like most collectors, I have areas that I am more comfortable in, and areas where I seek the advice of specialists. Many of us over the years have acquired bad items in package deals along with the good, myself included. And like �viking-rune�, if it was just some item that was tossed in, sometimes it works out and sometimes not. Being just something that you have to deal with.

Update: To cut to the chase, I think that from the images posted most observers can see that this particular dagger has some really serious �issues�. After looking into it even more. It seems that this dagger is not a one of kind �orphan�. It has relatives for sale that are all bright and shinny and new looking. With, of course, the same pommel cap. The original (new manufacture) thicker unmarked blade, and two ring scabbard etc.

PS: Sometimes you just have to keep digging. And in some respects this thread reminds me of the seemingly never ending �H� dagger discussion which had such strong supporters. Although with that thread, I have no doubt that there were some very sincere believers. Whose long tenure in the collecting community I sincerely respect. Having given so much to it over many, many, years.

And a Special Thanks to Dail (viking-rune). Who brought this matter to light alerting the collector community. I guess that we�ll have to wait and see what happens now(?). FP

With the alleged �Hackman� dagger, it could be seen that the pommel cap was assembled to the grip at an angle, dropping down at the right side. And while not quite as noticeable. There are indications that the embossing/detailing of the metal strip, comprising the side walls of the pommel cap, is less than perfect.

With this example, it seems that the quality standards of whomever is making these is getting much worse. When they folded the strip to make the pommel cap it was very much off center (the right margin is much smaller than the left margin). And once folded that�s it. Because it�s not that easy with an embossed piece of metal to get it exactly back to where it was because of the stresses created in folding.

But faking/counterfeiting is all about profit. So instead of discarding it - they finished it off and assembled it to create one of the �no maker� daggers. I�m also afraid that whomever is making these might have borrowed some pages (besides fake wear/aging) from the �Secrets of Making Third Reich Fakes� book. Which is a topic for another day.
Regards to All, FP

Bringing this back up. There are a great many Imperial Russian daggers listed constantly on Ebay. I believe most are reproductions. This discussion serves as a good tutorial.

Thank you