UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Army, Navy, and Luftwaffe Forum Luftwaffe -dagger presentation???

Looks like a 2nd luft pommel to me with the other anomolies being the tips of fingers. Put your hand into the same recieving position semi clasped on the grip and the fingers sit exactly. The roundness of the upper most finger nail is due to picture enhancement imo !.

So you mean that he is having his thumb between his index and pointing finger? You can see that the pommel is flat , not round.And take a look at the length of that pinky , that not possible.
And by enhancement you mean?

I have looked at this thread several times and I do not see much in the close-up pics other than a a blurred picture. What is that white blob ? An Army pommel ? The top of a riding crop ? A cigar cutter ? I do not think web will ever know.

Dave

By enhancement, I mean just adjusting the contrast or brightness of a picture distorts the original pixels and can change the original appearance....
Just an observation, and it could well be maltesers he is handing out .

While we may never know for sure, I do think due consideration should be given to another photograph of General Grabmann holding a 2nd model dagger. Look at the size of the pommel (and dagger) in relation to his hand. Does it look like he has small hands??

Also, a round/spheroid pommel like that on a 2nd model would tend to show that kind of a reflected light pattern. And in the preceding photograph it does not look like Breves has particularly small hands either, although they might not be quite as large as the General’s. FP

Looking at that photo...I think the only thing you can do is GUESS what he is holding.

Sepp

GDC 0292 Gold

Excuse my french but what is the purpose of all this ? Why is it so important to know if whether or not he is holding a 1st Luft, 2nd Luft or a cigar cutter for that matter ?
It is impossible to tell exactly what he is holding in his hands, the picture is so blurred that it is anybody's guess.

Pat, I did not start the thread and stand ready to be corrected. But I’m going to make an assumption that this is a continuation of the “Presentation Sword to RK Winner” thread that was started by Craig Gottlieb in March of 2007. As you may or may not recall during the course of that thread an early nickel silver mounted 1st model Luftwaffe dagger with a blued and gold blade presentation inscription blade was introduced on about page six. There was quite a lengthy discussion which I won’t really go into, but have posted a link below for those who may never have read it.

An argument was made that order # 916 (Luftwaffen-Verordungsblatt July 19, 1937) forbade officers (and select others) from continuing to wear the 1st model and they were to instead wear the 2nd model dagger. And that among other things, that it is more likely that if a presentation dagger was going to have been given to an honoree by his fellow officers, it would have been a 2nd model. That conclusion was disagreed with. And I would have to agree with you that with the photograph posted it is really hard to tell just what is being held in the gloved hand.

In the very first image to me it looked like just a small bright area. I would imagine, that in addition to what has already been done, a test scenario or scenarios with multiple daggers with different finishes and the sun high in the sky (etc.) could be conducted to try and more or less exactly recreate the photo. But even then it probably would not have a 100% guaranty of success because of the quality of the original photo. Although myself and no doubt some others already have at least preliminary opinions based upon the data presented to date. Best Regards, FP

RK Presentation Thread

Thank you FP for opening my eyes.
I didn't know that this thread was a continuation of the "Presentation Sword to RK winner".

I've been looking and looking at the photos and I don't see anything what would resemble a dagger in hand.
If at the angle the gloved hand is at, to me, if he was holding a "boot knife" one would at least see the tip of the blade protruding into the visor in the background...let alone a 1st Luft dagger.

-serge-

Serge, I was going to let it go, but I had to try using a boot knife first to see just how far it might stick out as a matter of personal curiosity. Only this time I used standing in front of a large mirror to try and get the angle right. (The image is inverted - but I think it does a reasonably good job without taking and then fooling around with a bunch of images.)

The test for me was not really conclusive so I tried using a dagger again. When I looked in the mirror, even with the scabbard held all the way down at my side, I had a surprise. A fairly significant portion of the upper part of the scabbard was exposed - which should have been easily seen in the photograph. And is something that in all of this discussion I had not really thought about.

Perhaps the General’s aide/orderly was holding the scabbard behind him out of view? That’s a possibility. But if that is what happened. Why was the aide not also holding the 2nd model dagger that was in the General’s hand as well (until of course he asked for it)??

Still not absolutely conclusive proof, but it does make you think. Regards, FP

As a by stander. I would very much like to sugest that the need to verrify the photos come from a GREAT DESIRE to prove the existance of a presentation dagger. I understand this need!!!.

BUT - the historical vevedence clearly shows, at best an award cerromont. The General is accompanied by Snaughfure. This in its self shows the dagger that hopefully was presented, could not have been so.

The dagger in question, is so questionable that credence is left in the wings.

I go back to the old addage OF my Grandmother, a small time historian, so ably put. "If wishes were horses, beggars would ride."