UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Army, Navy, and Luftwaffe Forum Luftwaffe -dagger presentation???

What do you guys see in this photo?
To me it looks like the General is holding a 2nd model Luftwaffe dagger in his hand , but is showing a 1st model.....
Regards , Rob.

Hi Rich , the picture is dated august 1944.
Rob.

I will explain you all this photo.
On the right of the photo you see Schnauffer ( seen on his back) , next to him ( holding a 2nd model LW , and showing the 1st model )
is General - Major Walther Grabmann.
This was in Sint Truiden in Belgium in August '44.
I was send this picture by a man that wrote a book on Schnauffer , and there are more pictures of this ceremony , but none were you see the 1st model.
Needless to say that this is a very very special photo . I know that you cant see the blade , but it IS a first luft and there reading something on the blade , and there holding the blade in such a manner that the inscription can be read.
Now , what was it on the regulation part ?

Rob, You’ve got me on this one. From the blurring with the image posted I can’t really tell what it is that is being looked at. Could you post some clearer images of the photograph that you were sent, and possibly also the ceremony? Regards, FP

I see a flat round pommel and I see a piece of the crossguard sticking out between his fingers.
The images that one can post here can only be 101 , thats why its so blurry.

Rob, Thank you for the additional input. I think that I may be seeing what you are referring to, but it does seem to leave an open ended question. Where in the image is the sunlight being reflected from what is a fairly long dagger blade? I tried to create an image using red to show where a reflection from the sun I think should be visible. Not my best effort, but it is an attempt to try and illustrate what I’m referring to. And is why I asked for more or better images to see if I was missing something? Regards, FP

You are missing the crossguard sticking out of his hand between his index and middelfinger. You cant see the blade on the red point you made , because he is holding it in another angle.

The same image in grayscale which is probably what I should have used the first time. FP

Rob, I understand what you are saying. But when I experimented: For the blade to not be visible it would show the side of my hand not the top. Regards, FP

I did the same , with the dagger in my hand , and I have to disagree. If he holds it like he does , the blade is not visible , and there also reading the blade , at least that is what I see from the guys , and that wouldnt be the way to hold the blade of they would read it .
What does it look like to you ? I see a pommel and a crossguard. Or what would the General been showing what he very clearly gave Schnauffer ?
If it wasnt for Schnauffer he wouldnt be standing next to Grabmann , he would be standing next to his fellow Night-Fighters.
Any other comments from other members ?
Or did I really had to much punches ?

The question is begged, what dose the picture show. In my opinion, the General has a 2nd pattern dagger in hand and is showing or giving a piece to the Luftwaffe officer. Schnauffer is accompaning the General.I would think that the company of officers are being presented with awards of some type.Schnauffer is part of the presentation party, not a recipient

You can see that the General is not giving the "piece" he is taking it back out of his hands . Adolf Breves , who is holding the "piece " , has it firmly in his hands , this would not be the case if he just had been handed the piece.
And what kind of awards do you mean ?
Candle-holders with a pommel and a crossguard of a first luft maybe ?
Can you describe any other award that would be handed out in such a ceremony in wich Generalmayor Walter Grabmann would fly over for?
And that also looks like this "piece"?
Or have you seen other types of awards that look like this one ?
Please specify.

here is another close-up , maybe you will see it now.You cant see the blade because Generalmajor Grabmann has his hand in front of it.

here is to give an idea how it looks when we tried to take the same picture.
Remember , Grabmann's hand is also in the way of the blade. To capture the same angle , light and distance is not possible.
You would have to go to the same spot , with the same camera .
But I might just even try to do that , just for the history. Only the camera will be a problem .
I just gave myself an good idea

And for the people here that really enjoy history , I still would like to share these foto's with you of this same day.

some more...please note the field telephone in the back , with a special connection through the window , remember , it was august '44 , the allies were on the move.

when the awarding of the "piece" was done , the men would take the time to hunt.
I am sure that there will be some people here that will say that that was the reall reason that the Generalmajor came down to belgium .
But I guess it would be ok for the high command , since the allies were only a few miles away

And after the hunt some relaxing...

one more hunting photo.

And here I can have some sweet dreams over , just holding them....Some of the awards that Schnaufer received...

Ailsbey wrote ;

quote:

In my opinion, the General has a 2nd pattern dagger in hand and is showing or giving a piece to the Luftwaffe officer. Schnauffer is accompaning the General.

This officer is Adolf Breves , he is no highly decorated guy .
So that the commander himself would come down there to present him a "piece" really doesnt make any scense.Schnaufer got the news on his oakleaves on sunday 25th of june ( 84 wins) , when the General came to visit him on the 25th of August
Schnaufer had allready shot down 93 planes ,
but it would take some time to make that dagger .

Rob,

Thank you for posting these pics, personally, i enjoy finding out about the history as well as artifacts of it.

Cheers,
Ibrahim,
Singapore.

Rob, I also would like to thank you for sharing some history with us. The pictures help give us an all too brief look into what it was like back then. I also very much appreciate the extra effort that went into making the demonstration of your point of view - and I understand it.

But to be completely honest about it I don’t know that you have proved the matter - which still seems to potentially be in question using the images you posted.

One of the last photos you posted does do a better job of illustrating your point of view. But proof, at least from my perspective, still seems to be lacking. Judging from the shadows on the faces and hands in the period photograph it seems to have been taken in direct sunlight. With the sun being somewhere to the right and above the participants.

Your photos all seem to have been taken in the shade. And the clenched hand is not turned down and slightly to the right as in the period photo - but is canted more upward and is angled more to the left.

There is also the matter of the light reflected from the object that Adolf Breves is holding. In August of 1944 the dagger should have been factory new with bright metal fittings and reflected light accordingly. In the period photo there is a shadow (?) in between the right and left sides of a pommel (if that is what it is) - but not at the top center? And using what I consider to be the closest to the original of the images you took. The pommel looks thinner in cross section as compared to the period photo. And the object protruding between Adolf Breves fingers looks thicker and more bulbous/rounded than in your image.

I’m really glad that you posted this additional set of images because in the first one it was not nearly as well defined. And I was wondering if it might not be a 2nd model that was being examined?? If possible. I’m hopeful that perhaps some more photos could be taken to better show your point of view. But at this instant in time (at least from what I seen) there is not I think a high confidence level that it is a 1st model dagger that is being admired.

Thank you again for sharing the photos and information!! Best Regards, FP

The comparison.

Then we will just leave it at this then .
I dont think that I would have you convinced with any picture , to be honest.
I hope that some here did enjoy the pictures , and the awarding of a 1st model something.
Or something thicker and more bulbous/rounded ....

Regards , and greetings from Holland ,
Rob.

He was awarded the Schwertern (Nr 84) on 30 July, with his victory total at 89. This could be the award or presentation of the award. Also the General in one picture is holding a second pattern dagger.By August 1944, the British and US front line was some 250 miles back.

No , wrong .
He got the news on the Oakleaves on 25 or 26th of june. 30th of july he got the news of the Swords.
He was given the Oakleaves at the SAME time as the Swords , and this was from Hitler personally,on 2 august 1944,like Hitler allways did with these awards.
This happened in the Wolfschanze , not at castle Nonnen-Mielen in Sint-Truiden. So saying that he got his awards from a General , now that wouldnt be by "regulations" , right?
No , that was not the reason why the General came to visit them on the 25th of august at Sint-Truiden.
Yes , the General is holding HIS 2nd model dagger.

Wow Rob certainly a wonderful group!

quote:

Originally posted by lakesidetrader:
Wow Rob certainly a wonderful group!

Understatement of the week !
Kidding aside, quite an imppressive grouping that someone can only dream of.
Congratulation.

Rob, We will leave it at that which is fine with me. As the others have said we all really appreciate your sharing this glimpse back into history with us.

Some other aspects of the pictures I think are interesting. Clearly visible in the first image posted is the fact that at least one of the men in the back rank does not appear to be wearing gloves. And that Schnaufer was wearing his (regulation) pistol on his left rear hip. As he was accompanying the general as is usually customary in reviewing, presenting decorations, or similar military functions.

But what really caught my interest in the close up image (which is better detailed) are the gloved upraised hands further down in the first row. What was that all about? Best Regards, FP

A bit of "heiling" going on I think Fred

Great pics Rob & your collection is truly remarkable!

[Fred wrote ;QUOTE] And that Schnaufer was wearing his (regulation) pistol on his left rear hip. As he was accompanying the general as is usually customary in reviewing, presenting decorations, or similar military functions. [/QUOTE]

And also when he was receiving 1st model Luftwaffe-daggers

Also when Georg Greiner was married to Anna Sophie Hommel he wore it , and when was invited to Bad Wildungen were he had to write some lines in "The Golden Book of the city" he wore it.
Also when he had his defile at the castle and when he was at the funeral of Heinz Scherfling he wore it.
When he got a visit from Helmut Lent he also wore it.
So you see Fred , whenever there was a important ceremony , visit or happening he wore the pistol.

Thanks guys for all your compliments , to be honest , when I first saw the photo I got goosebumps.
Regards , Rob.

Rob, Thank you, but I already knew that, and I think that I mentioned it in the Wolf (or one of the other) threads. But if I did not: In 1942 officers were required to either buy their own pistols or carry an issue weapon. And at some point they were to wear them in lieu of daggers or swords.

I was merely making an observation of what he was wearing that day during whatever ceremony was being conducted. Because you don’t see any pistols while they were hunting. Regards, FP

They couldnt hit the ducks with those pistols , thats why they brought those shotguns

Having looked at the photo, again and agian, I was looking for what we were thinking, a dagger. But then with a new set of eyes, all became transparent. The ceromony, the event, yes Rob was correct, taking something back. It was the Generals hand. They were shaking hands. What one sees is the fingers of the hand of the General.He had just congratulated the man. Run a close up and one can see all. Not a dagger but the fingers.

Ok.

A great picture, but what can happen when one looks for the thing that one is suposed to see. Glad Rob this has been of help to you. I have a couple of other tests that can be done, but the new pair of eyes have determined this positivly. I must admit I feal a little bit --- not seeing this my self. But this is historical interpritation. Those in RAF RECON INTER offten saw more than the normal bear.

From a new perspective I can see where that might be the General Grabmann’s “pinkie” finger in the photograph. Curving around underneath Breves hand. But the noticeably brighter roundish reflection to the right I'm not as sure about.

Something else that puzzled me is that when we see the General in front of the airplane. Where everyone seems to be very happy, and he is holding a 2nd model dagger with the hangers dangling. And in the first thread image (which is not as well defined) he still seems to be holding onto the same dagger (??) during the ceremony instead of wearing it. Which might suggest that it was intended to be presented?

An interesting reinterpretation of the photograph that could be worth following up. FP

do you really think that Grabmann's "pinkie" is THAT long ?
Come on , anybody else here see something ?
Maybe a secret handshake?
And what is sticking out between Breves' hand? , between the index and middelfinger?
This is hilarious!

Nice grouping!

Just a thought, but to me it looks like the General may be about to take the dagger shown in the officers hand, and then present the 2nd Luft he is holding? Could the photo at the plane have been taken before the ceremony, hence why he is still holding it?

Regards
Russell