UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories Helmet Forum Comparing two combat police helmets

I figure that this might be an interesting topic and would appreciate any thoughts or opinions.

Here are some photos of a couple of my Police helmets. They make a very interesting (and close) comparison.

- Both are SE 64s.
- Both have the same aluminum re-enforced liner band made by the same company and dated 1940.
- Both have 1940 dated chinstraps that are original to them.
- Both of them have the identical paint color (Although the lighting of the photos may not show it very well)

The one on the left has a steel lot number of 4961 and the one at right has the number 4996. They are only 35 numbers apart. I don't know if anybody can say for sure how many helmets were made from a single steel batch but the fact that these helmets are only 35 numbers apart, would seem to say that they were probably both made inside a fairly small amount of time. (days? A week? A month?)

In light of these striking similarities I find that the more interesting thing about them is their differences. The one at the left (4961) is an M35 and the one at the right (4996)is an M40.

Who can say whether the SE factory made both M35s and M40s at the same time? Who can say how long it may have taken them to switch their tooling from producing the M35 to producing the M40. And did they continue production during this switch?

Going on the asumption that they switched all at one time and shut down their machines during the re-tooling, it must be that all helmets produced from steel lots numbered less than 4961 would have been M35s. Consequently, all helmets produced from steel lot numbers higher than 4996 would have been M40s. The last M35 and the first M40 produced by SE would have had a steel lot that was numbered in between.

This may be a far-fetched assumption or it may be close to accuracy. I guess we may never know. But one thing is certain; Given the lot numbers of these two helmets, I would definately say that this M35 is one of the last to be made by SE and this M40 is one of the first.

Does anybody out there have a 1940 era M35 or M40 SE helmet? Perhaps other steel lot numbers found on such a specimen may shed more light on this.

Also interesting is that although these helmets came out of the factory pretty close together, they each have a different style of decal and a slightly different font in the lot-number strikes.

.

,

'

-

I guess I havent taken the time to digest Police Decals just yet, but the prospect is daunting. So many variations.

Very informative side-by-side Ken.

Ken,

In Ludwig Baer's research he has discovered that the batch lots each contained 101 helmets, of which the extra "1" was used as the test case for the entire lot. If it failed the ballistic tests then another helmet from the lot was selected at random and tested. If the second one passed, then they all passed and continued on for final assembly. If however, it also failed, then the entire lot was sent back for smelting down.

Given this knowledge, the number apart these two helmets of yours could have been is 4996 - 4961 = 35 x 100 = 3500 helmets.

Cheers,

Ken: I have two SE64 Combat Police helmets. One being a M35, the other a M40.

The M35 with a batch number of 5005.
The M40 with a batch number of 8030.

There are so many variations of Police decals and helmets out in collections.
When are there going to be a book about police helmets like Hicks "SS Steel" ???
In the first SS book by Hicks there was some police helmets,maybe he is interested in writing a book about police helmets to?
I know there are many nice police helmets in collections out there.............

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Mestas:
Ken: I have two SE64 Combat Police helmets. One being a M35, the other a M40.

The M35 with a batch number of 5005.
The M40 with a batch number of 8030.

I guess it's looking like they made M35's and M40's at the same time then. That's interesting.


Andrew

Interesting thread.

First of all, do we know for sure that batch numbers were chronological? Could for example the first digit be associated with something else? Such as machine, inspector, production line?
Also, would it be likely that the factoriy was nor re-tooled, but that they simply added capacity by adding the M40 line. Thus running the M35 and M40 lines simultaneusly, at least for some time?

Erik,

That's exactly what I was thinking. I think it is likely that these factories had different lines running different types, during the transition years of M35 to M40s.
They likely didn't retool all lines overnight, but did it over a period of time, months or a year.

My M40 is an SE64 batch 7868, just FYI. It looks like they made a lot of Police at SE.
I think it is possible,though,that the batches were not necessarily stamped out into helmets in order. I suspect that batches were delivered without respect to chronology and then stamped into helmets without respect to this either.
This is another one of those Third Reich mysteries that seem to never really get answered. Perhaps one of our members lives in Germany near the old factories and knows elderly folk who were employed there. It's like working genealogy in your family, ask the old folks before they pass away. Or, perhaps Ludwig Baer knows the answer........

I have the question sent to Herr Baer as we speak. I will let you know what he says and if he can shed any light on this matter of helmet lot numbers. I have always thought the numbers were chronological (within the same company of course) but perhaps this is not correct and there was some other "system" in force. Interesting topic.

Cheers,

Jerry: do your SE M35 and M40 have aluminum liner bands? can you make out the dates?

Since Jerry's SE M35 has a batch number of 5005 ( 9 higher than my M40) it would seem that M40s were indeed made concurrently with M35s. that is assuming the numbers are chronological.

I am thinking that it is possible they are not. Take for instance the lot numbers of other makers that have letter pre-fixes. Maybe blocks of numbers were assigned to seperate inspectors at the factory? Maybe each factory had it's own system?

It will be interesting to see if Baer has any other input.

Ken: The M35 has the re-enforced aluminum liner band dated 1940. It also has the steel rounded bales, and not the square aluminum ones. The M40 has a steel liner band dated 1940. I guess you could say my M35 does straddle the fence between the M35 and M40 models. It's a very interesting piece. It's probably one of the last M35's produced from the firm SE. It has smooth paint, "bordered" Police decal, chinstrap bales having the rounded M40 type, undated domestamp. Hope this helps a little bit. Jerry.

Ken;
Interesting. So interesting I just had to look at my police helmets. I have an M-40 with the aluimnum linner band, boarded decal a bookend to your M-40. 1940 dated chin strap . SE64 #4893. Where do our ideas go now?
Regards, Jerry

Thanks to both of you Jerrys.

So basically we have 4 SE64 police helmets that fit within a span of 112 numbers. All with 1940 dated componants. yet when aligned chronologically according to the number, it seems that the actual models switch back and forth.

lot number 4893 M40
lot number 4961 M35
lot number 4996 M40
lot number 5005 M35

I would say that this is evidence of one of two different situations; Either SE continued to make M35s while also making M40s OR the lot numbers are not exactly chronological. I would say that the first is most likely. That the transitory period in this factory was probably over a period of time. Maybe several months

Ken; Correction , my police helmet is a SE66 not a 64 maybe size does matter in the code numbers. Jerry

The mere fact that Jerry has am M40 with a lot number a full 2000 less than Ken's M35 is pretty good proof that the numbers are not chronologial. It'll be interesting to see what Ludwig says when he gets back to Darryl.

2000? I count the diffrence between 4893 (Jerry's M40) and 4961 (My M35) as being 68.

Not 2000.

68...68....Doah! Sorry Ken. Had a dyslexic moment there. You're right. I must have dummy-imposed the 6 from SE(6)4. My bad.

quote:

Originally posted by Ken N:
2000? I count the diffrence between 4893 (Jerry's M40) and 4961 (My M35) as being 68.

Not 2000.

Hah! I did the same thing with my check book last year. I think I bounced about 11 checks that week....